Top 10 out east swamp trainers . How many drug suspects?

[getreal]

Tom cancelliere is a top 10 trainer and seems to be as clean as the cleanest out east

[hammer0419]

First your insane,2nd I'm not applying,accusing,pointing my finger at anyone.
But Tom's dramatic assent to training prominence is remarkable.

[Sakit]

Contrary to all the gossip Burke has too much to lose to be playing around with “hard” drugs.

[Brkn Headpole]

Absolutely excellent thought. I have the utmost respect and admiration for Blair. I've sent him a horse before. More than once. I don't know if he has had a positive test. I never asked him. I will say one thing, even if he has, it wouldn't matter to me. I'd send him a horse any day, any time. Blair is the consummate professional. A true HOF'er and a class act.

He got a couple caffeine positives back in the day which would be mild considering so of the things people have put through horses.

[hoosierboy]

Tom cancelliere is a top 10 trainer and seems to be as clean as the cleanest out east

Don’t know about being top 10 trainer

[Lieutenant Sanchez]

I think the Catman was at their farm for a while helping out. The Cs are good prople, very down to earth for wealthy men.

[tumbleweed]

Cat hasnt been there for at least 10 years.

[SDST2009]

Pick a successful trainer's name, any trainer. There is probably somebody who is going to think that trainer is cheating. Cheating is a relative term. If you are racing on hay, oats, and water, then you are at a competitive disadvantage. Sad state of affairs, but the reality. Detention barn and out of competition testing should be the norm, and should be frequent/regular.

I can't think of a top trainer, a successful trainer, who has never had a positive test. Can you? Go way back in Meadowlands history. Larry/Ray Remmen, Jim Doherty, Lofty Bruce, Greg Wright, Howard Camden, Jack Friedhoff, Kelvin Harrison? Move on, Rovine/Holloway, Dave Elliott, Ben Webster, Ron Waples? Then Robinson, Artandi, Stutzman, George Anthony, Pelling, Croghan, Holloway? Today, Ake, Burke, Alagna, Moore, Linda Toscano? Keep going. For me, there's a big difference between a clenbuterol positive (slightly over the limit) and some designer, exotic drug that has zero place on the backstretch or farm. Who do you give a horse to today, before you get accused of using a "drug" trainer? Yes, I do think there should be owner accountability, but that leads to a very slippery slope.

I agree 100% that anyone running a decent sized stable os going to have a positive here and there. The trainer I use (and any I would consider using) have the same types of positives: very intermittent overages on widely-accepted therapeutic drugs that are likely more a slight gamble and/or slow metabolism positive, so to speak.

You're also exactly right that no one is winning on hay and oats anymore. At minimum, some pretty high-tech vet maintenance, etc going on. Not all bad. As athletes, these things should have therapeutic drugs and procedures available.

As someone older and smarter than me once said, "I know it when I see it."

When I see it, most often, is taking a horse and immediately improving it 2-3 seconds. I can think of 3 or 4 without even delving into statistics that fit that observation. As someone who has been associated with a horse that did exactly this, I am certain it can and does happen for legitimate reasons..but it doesn't happen with the type of regularity some of these trainers average.
Another time it is very apparent is when someone takes a horse, vastly improves it for ~5 starts, and the horse disappears.
Finally, the marked pattern of detention equating to a subpar performance. I know a lot of horses don't love the change of routine. But..a lot of trainers don't, either

[Grandstand Handicapper]

I agree 100% that anyone running a decent sized stable os going to have a positive here and there. The trainer I use (and any I would consider using) have the same types of positives: very intermittent overages on widely-accepted therapeutic drugs that are likely more a slight gamble and/or slow metabolism positive, so to speak.

You're also exactly right that no one is winning on hay and oats anymore. At minimum, some pretty high-tech vet maintenance, etc going on. Not all bad. As athletes, these things should have therapeutic drugs and procedures available.

As someone older and smarter than me once said, "I know it when I see it."

When I see it, most often, is taking a horse and immediately improving it 2-3 seconds. I can think of 3 or 4 without even delving into statistics that fit that observation. As someone who has been associated with a horse that did exactly this, I am certain it can and does happen for legitimate reasons..but it doesn't happen with the type of regularity some of these trainers average.
Another time it is very apparent is when someone takes a horse, vastly improves it for ~5 starts, and the horse disappears.
Finally, the marked pattern of detention equating to a subpar performance. I know a lot of horses don't love the change of routine. But..a lot of trainers don't, either

Thanks, and I agree. I've been in this sport and business, as a racehorse owner, a stallion share owner, on occasion as a breeder, and as a bettor, my entire adult life. While I am not a vet, or an expert on drugs, and the like, just from being around for soon to be approaching a half century, for whatever it's worth-----and it is not a qualified opinion-----I don't think this is a "pre-race" discussion today. I think whatever these cheaters are using and doing it's more a "regimen" or "program" or maybe a "cycle" kind of thing. Some of these bodybuilders do these things where they "cycle on" and "cycle off"-----but maybe that's more of a "steroid" thing. I don't know.

Yes, we've all seen the overnight and drastic improvement of a horse. I don't see it anywhere near as often as I used to, and that's because it's not happening anywhere near as often as it used to. I do remember a long time ago, I saw Bill Robinson take a horse that previously wore every piece of equipment known to mankind, he took everything off, raced the horse with nothing, and one week later the horse jogged and went about 3 seconds faster. Is the equipment the only thing he did? I don't know. But one week for a program, I don't know. Yes, pre-racing still exists, but I think there's much more going on.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

I agree 100% that anyone running a decent sized stable os going to have a positive here and there. The trainer I use (and any I would consider using) have the same types of positives: very intermittent overages on widely-accepted therapeutic drugs that are likely more a slight gamble and/or slow metabolism positive, so to speak.

You're also exactly right that no one is winning on hay and oats anymore. At minimum, some pretty high-tech vet maintenance, etc going on. Not all bad. As athletes, these things should have therapeutic drugs and procedures available.

As someone older and smarter than me once said, "I know it when I see it."

When I see it, most often, is taking a horse and immediately improving it 2-3 seconds. I can think of 3 or 4 without even delving into statistics that fit that observation. As someone who has been associated with a horse that did exactly this, I am certain it can and does happen for legitimate reasons..but it doesn't happen with the type of regularity some of these trainers average.
Another time it is very apparent is when someone takes a horse, vastly improves it for ~5 starts, and the horse disappears.
Finally, the marked pattern of detention equating to a subpar performance. I know a lot of horses don't love the change of routine. But..a lot of trainers don't, either

Absolutely, positively, I know it when I see it applies! Agreed. When I see a horse, like you said, go on a vicious tear for a month or so, and then fall apart or disappear, yes, something is wrong there. Yes, when a successful horse falls apart because of a detention barn, yes, something is wrong there. But I've also seen trainers improve horses and keep them going, bring them back next year, etc. There's no always here.

[MTP1972]

Be interesting to see how Fallout performs in his Progress Pace elim at Dover tomorrow being in Burke's stable for the first time.

[C FAUROT JR]

that's one list i don't want to be on   

[Pacer 2]

Yes, then more take their place as the honest ones are forced out

    Most of the honest ones thrive with cheaters gone.....

[Sakit]

Thanks, and I agree. I've been in this sport and business, as a racehorse owner, a stallion share owner, on occasion as a breeder, and as a bettor, my entire adult life. While I am not a vet, or an expert on drugs, and the like, just from being around for soon to be approaching a half century, for whatever it's worth-----and it is not a qualified opinion-----I don't think this is a "pre-race" discussion today. I think whatever these cheaters are using and doing it's more a "regimen" or "program" or maybe a "cycle" kind of thing. Some of these bodybuilders do these things where they "cycle on" and "cycle off"-----but maybe that's more of a "steroid" thing. I don't know.

Yes, we've all seen the overnight and drastic improvement of a horse. I don't see it anywhere near as often as I used to, and that's because it's not happening anywhere near as often as it used to. I do remember a long time ago, I saw Bill Robinson take a horse that previously wore every piece of equipment known to mankind, he took everything off, raced the horse with nothing, and one week later the horse jogged and went about 3 seconds faster. Is the equipment the only thing he did? I don't know. But one week for a program, I don't know. Yes, pre-racing still exists, but I think there's much more going on.

I had horses with Bill he was a great guy lotta fun. He hated a horse wearing a lot of equipment.

[Facts]

How about the Remens? I don’t ever remember them getting any positives