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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Sunmoon 1219 on November 16, 2025, 10:34:38 PM
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Looking at years gone bye out east the names on top at the swamp don’t seem to be many with positive tests suspensions or a claim and launch barn . Thoughts on this years leaders as the year winds down .
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Burke, Engblom, Alexander, Eckley, Bako, Dilloian, Oakes, Wisher, Bongiorno, Daley
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I meant at the Meadowlands not the country .
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Burke, Engblom, Alexander, Eckley, Bako, Dilloian, Oakes, Wisher, Bongiorno, Daley
you forgot Pelling and Crogan
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Burke, Engblom, Alexander, Eckley, Bako, Dilloian, Oakes, Wisher, Bongiorno, Daley
All the winners are cheating? Too funny!! ngc3
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All the winners are cheating? Too funny!! ngc3
None of the winners are cheating, too funny ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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None of the winners are cheating, too funny ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Any cheaters are gradually weeded out of this and every sport.
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Pick a successful trainer's name, any trainer. There is probably somebody who is going to think that trainer is cheating. Cheating is a relative term. If you are racing on hay, oats, and water, then you are at a competitive disadvantage. Sad state of affairs, but the reality. Detention barn and out of competition testing should be the norm, and should be frequent/regular.
I can't think of a top trainer, a successful trainer, who has never had a positive test. Can you? Go way back in Meadowlands history. Larry/Ray Remmen, Jim Doherty, Lofty Bruce, Greg Wright, Howard Camden, Jack Friedhoff, Kelvin Harrison? Move on, Rovine/Holloway, Dave Elliott, Ben Webster, Ron Waples? Then Robinson, Artandi, Stutzman, George Anthony, Pelling, Croghan, Holloway? Today, Ake, Burke, Alagna, Moore, Linda Toscano? Keep going. For me, there's a big difference between a clenbuterol positive (slightly over the limit) and some designer, exotic drug that has zero place on the backstretch or farm. Who do you give a horse to today, before you get accused of using a "drug" trainer? Yes, I do think there should be owner accountability, but that leads to a very slippery slope.
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Burke is the obvious one. He beat all the ones arrested, learned from no real horseman, didn't grow up in the business, and never has a down year.
Pelling got a 10 year vacation. He came back & picked up where he left off.
Engblom has ridiculous success & his barn grew like all the ones before him.
Bongiorno clan went right into stardom. There was no learning curve. Check the family history and....
Ake has well bred horses & is highly regarded... but most think he cheats.
Takter was given a retirement for cheating.
There are many more. The results they have at the swamp are often less than other tracks.
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No competative trainer is sending them to post on only hay and oates
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Pick a successful trainer's name, any trainer. There is probably somebody who is going to think that trainer is cheating. Cheating is a relative term. If you are racing on hay, oats, and water, then you are at a competitive disadvantage. Sad state of affairs, but the reality. Detention barn and out of competition testing should be the norm, and should be frequent/regular.
I can't think of a top trainer, a successful trainer, who has never had a positive test. Can you? Go way back in Meadowlands history. Larry/Ray Remmen, Jim Doherty, Lofty Bruce, Greg Wright, Howard Camden, Jack Friedhoff, Kelvin Harrison? Move on, Rovine/Holloway, Dave Elliott, Ben Webster, Ron Waples? Then Robinson, Artandi, Stutzman, George Anthony, Pelling, Croghan, Holloway? Today, Ake, Burke, Alagna, Moore, Linda Toscano? Keep going. For me, there's a big difference between a clenbuterol positive (slightly over the limit) and some designer, exotic drug that has zero place on the backstretch or farm. Who do you give a horse to today, before you get accused of using a "drug" trainer? Yes, I do think there should be owner accountability, but that leads to a very slippery slope.
i can think of one..Blair Burgess..i dont think he has ever gotten a positive
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Any cheaters are gradually weeded out of this and every sport.
Yes, then more take their place as the honest ones are forced out
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i can think of one..Blair Burgess..i dont think he has ever gotten a positive
Absolutely excellent thought. I have the utmost respect and admiration for Blair. I've sent him a horse before. More than once. I don't know if he has had a positive test. I never asked him. I will say one thing, even if he has, it wouldn't matter to me. I'd send him a horse any day, any time. Blair is the consummate professional. A true HOF'er and a class act.
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Instead of guessing about positives, why not look the trainer up on Pathway?
Cost $0.00
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The thread out east is current top 10 trainers. Doubtful some of these guys are cheats others not so sure.
1.Burke
2.Cullipher
3.Daley
4.Bongiorno
5.Height
6.Engblom
7.Silva
8.Svanstedt.
9.Posner /10. McKenzie.
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Tom cancelliere is a top 10 trainer and seems to be as clean as the cleanest out east
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First your insane,2nd I'm not applying,accusing,pointing my finger at anyone.
But Tom's dramatic assent to training prominence is remarkable.
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Contrary to all the gossip Burke has too much to lose to be playing around with “hard” drugs.
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Absolutely excellent thought. I have the utmost respect and admiration for Blair. I've sent him a horse before. More than once. I don't know if he has had a positive test. I never asked him. I will say one thing, even if he has, it wouldn't matter to me. I'd send him a horse any day, any time. Blair is the consummate professional. A true HOF'er and a class act.
He got a couple caffeine positives back in the day which would be mild considering so of the things people have put through horses.
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Tom cancelliere is a top 10 trainer and seems to be as clean as the cleanest out east
Don’t know about being top 10 trainer
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I think the Catman was at their farm for a while helping out. The Cs are good prople, very down to earth for wealthy men.
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Cat hasnt been there for at least 10 years.
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Pick a successful trainer's name, any trainer. There is probably somebody who is going to think that trainer is cheating. Cheating is a relative term. If you are racing on hay, oats, and water, then you are at a competitive disadvantage. Sad state of affairs, but the reality. Detention barn and out of competition testing should be the norm, and should be frequent/regular.
I can't think of a top trainer, a successful trainer, who has never had a positive test. Can you? Go way back in Meadowlands history. Larry/Ray Remmen, Jim Doherty, Lofty Bruce, Greg Wright, Howard Camden, Jack Friedhoff, Kelvin Harrison? Move on, Rovine/Holloway, Dave Elliott, Ben Webster, Ron Waples? Then Robinson, Artandi, Stutzman, George Anthony, Pelling, Croghan, Holloway? Today, Ake, Burke, Alagna, Moore, Linda Toscano? Keep going. For me, there's a big difference between a clenbuterol positive (slightly over the limit) and some designer, exotic drug that has zero place on the backstretch or farm. Who do you give a horse to today, before you get accused of using a "drug" trainer? Yes, I do think there should be owner accountability, but that leads to a very slippery slope.
I agree 100% that anyone running a decent sized stable os going to have a positive here and there. The trainer I use (and any I would consider using) have the same types of positives: very intermittent overages on widely-accepted therapeutic drugs that are likely more a slight gamble and/or slow metabolism positive, so to speak.
You're also exactly right that no one is winning on hay and oats anymore. At minimum, some pretty high-tech vet maintenance, etc going on. Not all bad. As athletes, these things should have therapeutic drugs and procedures available.
As someone older and smarter than me once said, "I know it when I see it."
When I see it, most often, is taking a horse and immediately improving it 2-3 seconds. I can think of 3 or 4 without even delving into statistics that fit that observation. As someone who has been associated with a horse that did exactly this, I am certain it can and does happen for legitimate reasons..but it doesn't happen with the type of regularity some of these trainers average.
Another time it is very apparent is when someone takes a horse, vastly improves it for ~5 starts, and the horse disappears.
Finally, the marked pattern of detention equating to a subpar performance. I know a lot of horses don't love the change of routine. But..a lot of trainers don't, either ;D
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I agree 100% that anyone running a decent sized stable os going to have a positive here and there. The trainer I use (and any I would consider using) have the same types of positives: very intermittent overages on widely-accepted therapeutic drugs that are likely more a slight gamble and/or slow metabolism positive, so to speak.
You're also exactly right that no one is winning on hay and oats anymore. At minimum, some pretty high-tech vet maintenance, etc going on. Not all bad. As athletes, these things should have therapeutic drugs and procedures available.
As someone older and smarter than me once said, "I know it when I see it."
When I see it, most often, is taking a horse and immediately improving it 2-3 seconds. I can think of 3 or 4 without even delving into statistics that fit that observation. As someone who has been associated with a horse that did exactly this, I am certain it can and does happen for legitimate reasons..but it doesn't happen with the type of regularity some of these trainers average.
Another time it is very apparent is when someone takes a horse, vastly improves it for ~5 starts, and the horse disappears.
Finally, the marked pattern of detention equating to a subpar performance. I know a lot of horses don't love the change of routine. But..a lot of trainers don't, either ;D
Thanks, and I agree. I've been in this sport and business, as a racehorse owner, a stallion share owner, on occasion as a breeder, and as a bettor, my entire adult life. While I am not a vet, or an expert on drugs, and the like, just from being around for soon to be approaching a half century, for whatever it's worth-----and it is not a qualified opinion-----I don't think this is a "pre-race" discussion today. I think whatever these cheaters are using and doing it's more a "regimen" or "program" or maybe a "cycle" kind of thing. Some of these bodybuilders do these things where they "cycle on" and "cycle off"-----but maybe that's more of a "steroid" thing. I don't know.
Yes, we've all seen the overnight and drastic improvement of a horse. I don't see it anywhere near as often as I used to, and that's because it's not happening anywhere near as often as it used to. I do remember a long time ago, I saw Bill Robinson take a horse that previously wore every piece of equipment known to mankind, he took everything off, raced the horse with nothing, and one week later the horse jogged and went about 3 seconds faster. Is the equipment the only thing he did? I don't know. But one week for a program, I don't know. Yes, pre-racing still exists, but I think there's much more going on.
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I agree 100% that anyone running a decent sized stable os going to have a positive here and there. The trainer I use (and any I would consider using) have the same types of positives: very intermittent overages on widely-accepted therapeutic drugs that are likely more a slight gamble and/or slow metabolism positive, so to speak.
You're also exactly right that no one is winning on hay and oats anymore. At minimum, some pretty high-tech vet maintenance, etc going on. Not all bad. As athletes, these things should have therapeutic drugs and procedures available.
As someone older and smarter than me once said, "I know it when I see it."
When I see it, most often, is taking a horse and immediately improving it 2-3 seconds. I can think of 3 or 4 without even delving into statistics that fit that observation. As someone who has been associated with a horse that did exactly this, I am certain it can and does happen for legitimate reasons..but it doesn't happen with the type of regularity some of these trainers average.
Another time it is very apparent is when someone takes a horse, vastly improves it for ~5 starts, and the horse disappears.
Finally, the marked pattern of detention equating to a subpar performance. I know a lot of horses don't love the change of routine. But..a lot of trainers don't, either ;D
Absolutely, positively, I know it when I see it applies! Agreed. When I see a horse, like you said, go on a vicious tear for a month or so, and then fall apart or disappear, yes, something is wrong there. Yes, when a successful horse falls apart because of a detention barn, yes, something is wrong there. But I've also seen trainers improve horses and keep them going, bring them back next year, etc. There's no always here.
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Be interesting to see how Fallout performs in his Progress Pace elim at Dover tomorrow being in Burke's stable for the first time.
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that's one list i don't want to be on ngc3
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Yes, then more take their place as the honest ones are forced out
Most of the honest ones thrive with cheaters gone.....
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Thanks, and I agree. I've been in this sport and business, as a racehorse owner, a stallion share owner, on occasion as a breeder, and as a bettor, my entire adult life. While I am not a vet, or an expert on drugs, and the like, just from being around for soon to be approaching a half century, for whatever it's worth-----and it is not a qualified opinion-----I don't think this is a "pre-race" discussion today. I think whatever these cheaters are using and doing it's more a "regimen" or "program" or maybe a "cycle" kind of thing. Some of these bodybuilders do these things where they "cycle on" and "cycle off"-----but maybe that's more of a "steroid" thing. I don't know.
Yes, we've all seen the overnight and drastic improvement of a horse. I don't see it anywhere near as often as I used to, and that's because it's not happening anywhere near as often as it used to. I do remember a long time ago, I saw Bill Robinson take a horse that previously wore every piece of equipment known to mankind, he took everything off, raced the horse with nothing, and one week later the horse jogged and went about 3 seconds faster. Is the equipment the only thing he did? I don't know. But one week for a program, I don't know. Yes, pre-racing still exists, but I think there's much more going on.
I had horses with Bill he was a great guy lotta fun. He hated a horse wearing a lot of equipment.
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How about the Remens? I don’t ever remember them getting any positives
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How about the Remens? I don’t ever remember them getting any positives
Ray and Larry got a positive test here and there over the years. Not for anything major, or exotic/illegal. I remember a few times back in the 80's or 90's when Larry got a positive, (mean and lean) Donnie Queen would be listed as trainer, LOL. The Remmen's were excellent horsemen. Solid, quality guys, who were at the Big M from day one when they opened, up until Larry retired. Leading trainers, top 5 trainers, countless times. Early on they were the go-to guys for countless horsemen to ship horses to. I always liked them, and respected them.
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Ray and Larry got a positive test here and there over the years. Not for anything major, or exotic/illegal. I remember a few times back in the 80's or 90's when Larry got a positive, (mean and lean) Donnie Queen would be listed as trainer, LOL. The Remmen's were excellent horsemen. Solid, quality guys, who were at the Big M from day one when they opened, up until Larry retired. Leading trainers, top 5 trainers, countless times. Early on they were the go-to guys for countless horsemen to ship horses to. I always liked them, and respected them.
I think Ray won the first race opening night at the Meadowlands
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He did.
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He did.
tmbz1
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Has Izzy Estrada gotten a positive? I used to love betting first time Izzy. It was like an ATM machine.
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Beach Towel was amazing as a 3 yo.
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Beach Towel was amazing as a 3 yo.
Absolutely agree! He really was. First horse to earn $2mm in a season (I think). Class act owner and trainer, and driver. Tangled with a very good class. A couple of the really good 2yo's didn't come back great, but the crop of 3yo's were solid, most of them were good, at one time or another, throughout the season. He danced with In The Pocket, Scoot Outa Reach, Apache's Fame, Road Machine, Jake and Elwood, Kiev Hanover, Till We Meet Again, Shipps Snoops, and a few others.
I love when people say, could you imagine if John Campbell drove him. Funny. Idiotic, but funny, LOL.
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Contrary to all the gossip Burke has too much to lose to be playing around with “hard” drugs.
Exactly!
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Contrary to all the gossip Burke has too much to lose to be playing around with “hard” drugs.
Or he would be nothing without PED's
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Or he would be nothing without PED's
you have to admit he’s a great trainer. He doesn’t have 300+ horses for nothing.
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Or he would be nothing without PED's
He clearly only uses legal PED's.
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you have to admit he’s a great trainer. He doesn’t have 300+ horses for nothing.
Correct.
He's no different than Pletcher or Cox or Brown.
Stacks the right blend of legal therapeutics and has the formula down for that better than anyone.
And he probably has better ingredients to mix than most anyone, certainly those in the overnights.
Going to do $30 Million this year. tmbz1
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Correct.
He's no different than Pletcher or Cox or Brown.
Stacks the right blend of legal therapeutics and has the formula down for that better than anyone.
And he probably has better ingredients to mix than most anyone, certainly those in the overnights.
Going to do $30 Million this year. tmbz1
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