HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: COME ON MAN on February 21, 2024, 09:51:51 PM
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https://x.com/PerEngblom/status/1760398762223038671?s=20
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Has this been adjudicated yet? He's probably the mysterious name for Friday.
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It was contamination and just a coincidence that his horses were unbeatable ffs. 11.wp
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Took a year to come to head? What a joke
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It was contamination and just a coincidence that his horses were unbeatable ffs. 11.wp
ngc3 ngc3
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I find it amazing that these so-called trainers that get caught with a pharmacy of drugs in their horses feign ignorance and have NO IDEA how it happened! How dumb do these idiots think the betting public is? These guys cannot even pronounce the names of the drugs that magically make their way into the bloodstreams of their racehorses! There are NO great trainers. They do NOT exist, and never did. It is all about using the latest undetectable medications out there from disreputable vets and chemists. The top drivers are well aware of this and could care less, as all they are concerned with is making money any way they can.
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I find it amazing that these so-called trainers that get caught with a pharmacy of drugs in their horses feign ignorance and have NO IDEA how it happened! How dumb do these idiots think the betting public is? These guys cannot even pronounce the names of the drugs that magically make their way into the bloodstreams of their racehorses! There are NO great trainers. They do NOT exist, and never did. It is all about using the latest undetectable medications out there from disreputable vets and chemists. The top drivers are well aware of this and could care less, as all they are concerned with is making money any way they can.
Well said tmbz1 tmbz1
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I find it amazing that these so-called trainers that get caught with a pharmacy of drugs in their horses feign ignorance and have NO IDEA how it happened! How dumb do these idiots think the betting public is? These guys cannot even pronounce the names of the drugs that magically make their way into the bloodstreams of their racehorses! There are NO great trainers. They do NOT exist, and never did. It is all about using the latest undetectable medications out there from disreputable vets and chemists. The top drivers are well aware of this and could care less, as all they are concerned with is making money any way they can.
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I agree with you that these days there are no great trainers just great drugs. But then again the goal is to be faster than everyone else, how you accomplish that is the key to success. 45 years ago I knew an old trainer that lived down the street that plowed his fields with his 2 standardbreds. When fair racing started he would take them to the fairgrounds and train them twice a day. He drove himself, in his 70's at the time and most often was parked the mile but batted about .750 all summer long. I asked him how his horses were so good and one day he hooked the plow up and showed me. There was a gas engine and a spark plug on that wagon/plow. Seems like the spark plug helped them to go forward at times they didn't really want to. That translated over into their racing habits. They went forward when he asked. No drugs needed but if he would of added a lil epo and some testosterone base he would have been world renown.
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https://x.com/PerEngblom/status/1760398762223038671?s=20
When does "human contamination" stop, and the actual use of these "human" pharmaceuticals, become a problem. Clearly all of these trainers are using something that may just be under the radar enough to argue "human contamination" if they are using human dosages. I say bullshit to the contamination! For as large as an animal a horse may be, they're systems are far more sensitive to things then many humans.
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Got to admit, his tweet was a smart move. Getting ahead of the obvious listing before it goes public. I doubt OXY would benefit a horse. Yes, it is a powerful painkiller and would definitely benefit a horse that way, but on the other hand, it would certainly make them loopy enough to break or do something else stupid like nod out on the track.
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Got to admit, his tweet was a smart move. Getting ahead of the obvious listing before it goes public. I doubt OXY would benefit a horse. Yes, it is a powerful painkiller and would definitely benefit a horse that way, but on the other hand, it would certainly make them loopy enough to break or do something else stupid like nod out on the track.
You guys don't understand how this works. Remember etorphine, elephant juice? 1cc in a 1 liter jug. Pull out 1cc from the 1 liter jug inject horse. That diluted amount is now a stimulant and pain killer not a tq..same with oxy, Dilaudid, fentanyl. Dilution has/had its advantages. Picogram testing just tells us we need to diluted more.
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You guys don't understand how this works. Remember etorphine, elephant juice? 1cc in a 1 liter jug. Pull out 1cc from the 1 liter jug inject horse. That diluted amount is now a stimulant and pain killer not a tq..same with oxy, Dilaudid, fentanyl. Dilution has/had its advantages. Picogram testing just tells us we need to diluted more.
My case in point.
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You guys don't understand how this works. Remember etorphine, elephant juice? 1cc in a 1 liter jug. Pull out 1cc from the 1 liter jug inject horse. That diluted amount is now a stimulant and pain killer not a tq..same with oxy, Dilaudid, fentanyl. Dilution has/had its advantages. Picogram testing just tells us we need to diluted more.
Good to know. Now this should be tweeted in response to Per's tweet
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You guys don't understand how this works. Remember etorphine, elephant juice? 1cc in a 1 liter jug. Pull out 1cc from the 1 liter jug inject horse. That diluted amount is now a stimulant and pain killer not a tq..same with oxy, Dilaudid, fentanyl. Dilution has/had its advantages. Picogram testing just tells us we need to diluted more.
:o :o :o Ramnap has experience with elephant juice!!--is he M99=Nance??
My Vet tells me that no studies have been done on these so called "contamination" positives to see if they have an effect at these low levels.So until that happens--officials need to start higher penalties. One trainer I know was told by a State Official that he didnt care how the horse got the drugs--the trainer is responsible. As it stands now---its the "attendants" who are responsible and the trainer gets 0 penalty??
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Please we heard out here that back east this guy has been using the JT wonder drug Filgrastim. or commonly known as Neutrogena out here . Lets see whats worse Oxy or the Neutro. Thats pretty messed up hes using this stuff out there. Lets see Gural take a solid position now.
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You guys don't understand how this works. Remember etorphine, elephant juice? 1cc in a 1 liter jug. Pull out 1cc from the 1 liter jug inject horse. That diluted amount is now a stimulant and pain killer not a tq..same with oxy, Dilaudid, fentanyl. Dilution has/had its advantages. Picogram testing just tells us we need to diluted more.
I dont think thats how those drugs work.......
But to clarify: these backstretch chemists some how found the correct dosage on these depressants to not only keep their pain killing properties, but also act as a stimulant enough so that it is actually performance enhancing to a large degree and some how make it through thousands of post race tests because the levels were undetectable (All are class 1 drugs, there are no allowed levels) and they only got busted because there wasn't drug testing machinery in the world sensitive enough to find it?
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Per's excuse is that they found "human" drugs in a horses system. I didn't know drugs can discriminate between what biological system they are in. It's not like any other drugs meant for humans have been used on horses.
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Per's excuse is that they found "human" drugs in a horses system. I didn't know drugs can discriminate between what biological system they are in. It's not like any other drugs meant for humans have been used on horses.
Ahh yeah I said this already....
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There MUST be ZERO tolerance for ANY drug to be in a racehorse. ONLY THEN will these criminals who use them be brought to justice, which will level the playing field for the small stables.
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I remember hearing EPO could trigger a DEX positive. I wonder if the trainers are using something that triggers an OXY positive.
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Please we heard out here that back east this guy has been using the JT wonder drug Filgrastim. or commonly known as Neutrogena out here . Lets see whats worse Oxy or the Neutro. Thats pretty messed up hes using this stuff out there. Lets see Gural take a solid position now.
So you are saying that somebody is using an immune system stimulant on their horses. That seems like a been there done that situation before many times.
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So If I bust nuts on a hot groom's ass and it ends up in straw this could in theory cause a cialis positive? ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Ever heard of drug testing?
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So If I bust nuts on a hot groom's ass and it ends up in straw this could in theory cause a cialis positive? ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
If they test the urine you might end up being the sire in a dna test.
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I find it amazing that these so-called trainers that get caught with a pharmacy of drugs in their horses feign ignorance and have NO IDEA how it happened! How dumb do these idiots think the betting public is? These guys cannot even pronounce the names of the drugs that magically make their way into the bloodstreams of their racehorses! There are NO great trainers. They do NOT exist, and never did. It is all about using the latest undetectable medications out there from disreputable vets and chemists. The top drivers are well aware of this and could care less, as all they are concerned with is making money any way they can.
Well said! It doesn’t take 1 year to get test results sack this makes me wonder if Gural isn’t holding results back until he wants to lay the hammer for publicity
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Yea - why is it one yr before we know about this and there hasn't even been a split done yet? Very suspicious. Where is the full disclosure from NJ Racing Commission on this?
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If there is a split good chance of that year decomposing that sample. So the original is tossed or decomposing and the split is worthless too. More corruption
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Positive test- post race
Horse:
MON AMOUR
Pharmaceuticals:
Meprobamate (Class 2), Oxycodone (Class 1) ,
Carisoprodol (Class 2)
Additional Details:
New Jersey Racing Commission (NJRC) licensee Per Engblom was the programmed trainer of the horse "Mon Amour" when he raced in the 6th race at the Meadowlands Racetrack on April 29, 2023 and finished in first place.
Following this race, "Mon Amour" was selected to submit post-race blood and urine samples for analysis. A report from Industrial Laboratories identified the presence of Oxycodone, Carisprodol and Meprobamate, a metabolite of Carisprodol.
At Mr. Engblom's request, split sample testing was performed at Texas A&M Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory, which is an approved independent laboratory.
These testing results did confirm the presence of Oxycodone, Carisprodol and its metabolite Meprobamate.
This is in direct violation of the rules and regulations of the New Jersey Racing Commission. An adminsitrative hearing was conducted on December 6, 2023 in the Judges office at the Meadowlands Racetrack to accept evidence and testimony regarding this matter. As a result of this hearing, the Board of Judges have determined that NJRC licensee Per Engblom was the programmed trainer of the horse "Mon Amour when he raced in the 6th race at the Meadowlands Racetrack on April 29, 2023 and the presence of these prohibited substances is in direct violation of N.J.A.C. 13:71-23.1, and N.J.A.C. 13:71-23.6. As a trainer licensed by the NJRC, Mr. Engblom is the absolute insurer of and responsible for the condition of a horse within his care and custody and shall not enter or start a horse that has in its body any drug or substance foreign to the natural horse. As a result of the evidence and testimony presented at the administrative hearing held on December 6, 2023 regarding the post-race positive test from the horse "Mon Amour" for the drug Oxycodone on April 29, 2023, Mr. Engblom is hereby issued a full suspension of his NJRC license for a period of one year (365 days). Said suspension shall begin on March 15, 2024 and run through March 14, 2025 inclusive.
Fined: $ 6,000
• Full suspension - 380 days:
03/15/2024 - 03/29/2025
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What is the over/under of days that he is actually prohibited from racing? I will say that he will be cut free after 30 days.
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The only reason anybody could get away with this is the simple fact that contamination is possible and has happened. That being said you now as a trainer know that you just dilute a little more till they stop detecting. It's not the trainers who are coming up with this stuff, but they are the connections to the owners who push this to their trainers. It's an entire network. Most often the owner has a better connection to certain performance enhancing pushing vets and order things done to horses the trainer would rather not have done.
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If there is a split good chance of that year decomposing that sample. So the original is tossed or decomposing and the split is worthless too. More corruption
I'm starting to think you don't know anything.
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Positive test- post race
Horse:
MON AMOUR
Pharmaceuticals:
Meprobamate (Class 2), Oxycodone (Class 1) ,
Carisoprodol (Class 2)
Additional Details:
New Jersey Racing Commission (NJRC) licensee Per Engblom was the programmed trainer of the horse "Mon Amour" when he raced in the 6th race at the Meadowlands Racetrack on April 29, 2023 and finished in first place.
Following this race, "Mon Amour" was selected to submit post-race blood and urine samples for analysis. A report from Industrial Laboratories identified the presence of Oxycodone, Carisprodol and Meprobamate, a metabolite of Carisprodol.
At Mr. Engblom's request, split sample testing was performed at Texas A&M Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory, which is an approved independent laboratory.
These testing results did confirm the presence of Oxycodone, Carisprodol and its metabolite Meprobamate.
This is in direct violation of the rules and regulations of the New Jersey Racing Commission. An adminsitrative hearing was conducted on December 6, 2023 in the Judges office at the Meadowlands Racetrack to accept evidence and testimony regarding this matter. As a result of this hearing, the Board of Judges have determined that NJRC licensee Per Engblom was the programmed trainer of the horse "Mon Amour when he raced in the 6th race at the Meadowlands Racetrack on April 29, 2023 and the presence of these prohibited substances is in direct violation of N.J.A.C. 13:71-23.1, and N.J.A.C. 13:71-23.6. As a trainer licensed by the NJRC, Mr. Engblom is the absolute insurer of and responsible for the condition of a horse within his care and custody and shall not enter or start a horse that has in its body any drug or substance foreign to the natural horse. As a result of the evidence and testimony presented at the administrative hearing held on December 6, 2023 regarding the post-race positive test from the horse "Mon Amour" for the drug Oxycodone on April 29, 2023, Mr. Engblom is hereby issued a full suspension of his NJRC license for a period of one year (365 days). Said suspension shall begin on March 15, 2024 and run through March 14, 2025 inclusive.
Fined: $ 6,000
• Full suspension - 380 days:
03/15/2024 - 03/29/2025
Where did you find this?
Was it intentionally redacted from the USTA listing?
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If you disagree with the decomposition of a sample over time. I already know you know nothing. Go read a book and come back later.
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Where did you find this?
Was it intentionally redacted from the USTA listing?
It wasn't a stakes race involving a potential stallion with the right connections, so it probably wasn't redacted. The USTA has to receive the info from the state authorities. Likely the state posted too late to be picked up on this weeks FAS.
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If you disagree with the decomposition of a sample over time. I already know you know nothing. Go read a book and come back later.
You don't get forever to ask for a split sample, there's actually rules in PA that the split has to be sent out within 15 days. If they were gonna bury a positive, the trainer requests the split and then the judges don't send it out. Then it's like the positive never happened.
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Where did you find this?
Was it intentionally redacted from the USTA listing?
It’s listed in pathway though for some reason the USTA didn’t include it in the fines and suspensions list they release every Friday.
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It’s listed in pathway though for some reason the USTA didn’t include it in the fines and suspensions list they release every Friday.
So now the USless TA wants us to pay to find out who has been a bad boy and who has people in higher places.
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Gural is in a pretty big quagmire. First he says that no one who gets caught drugging can’t race at the M. Then he stops being totally consistent. Now there are so many bigger trainers getting caught he is facing short fields for lack of horses. Pretty soon there won’t be anyone allowed to race there unless Gural softens his stance. What a Catch 22 this industry is facing.
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Gural is in a pretty big quagmire. First he says that no one who gets caught drugging can’t race at the M. Then he stops being totally consistent. Now there are so many bigger trainers getting caught he is facing short fields for lack of horses. Pretty soon there won’t be anyone allowed to race there unless Gural softens his stance. What a Catch 22 this industry is facing.
I think I read where he weighs each case separately. We will see where that goes. Many were surprised when he suspended Jen B
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Gural is in a pretty big quagmire. First he says that no one who gets caught drugging can’t race at the M. Then he stops being totally consistent. Now there are so many bigger trainers getting caught he is facing short fields for lack of horses. Pretty soon there won’t be anyone allowed to race there unless Gural softens his stance. What a Catch 22 this industry is facing.
I am not sure what contractually and with whom may cause him to continue racing. If he is not encumbered to stay racing legally, he should just shut it down. Yes, the stables can go race for welfare $$$ in NY or Pa, but there will be uncoupling sooner or later at the welfare tracks and all these guys can go fade into the sunset.
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Trainers may change but the horses will be there , with or without beards
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Per Engbloom commented on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/PerEngblom/status/1760398762223038671/photo/1
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ENGBOMBED...
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i feel bad for PER..
hes a good guy..
he didnt deserve this..
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i feel bad for PER..
hes a good guy..
he didnt deserve this..
Where do you come up with these statements? His horse had MULTIPLE ILLEGAL drugs in its system LAST year to boot, and because he is a nice guy that makes it OK? Do you think the horse thinks PER is a nice guy? Cheats do NOT deserve anything except fines and sanctions! Unreal what you wrote.
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i feel bad for PER..
hes a good guy..
he didnt deserve this..
"Good Guy" did a bad thing.
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"Good Guy" did a bad thing.
I TRULY BELIEVE ITS A HUMAN ERROR
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So now the USless TA wants us to pay to find out who has been a bad boy and who has people in higher places.
There is no charge for Rulings/fines and suspensions on Pathway.
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Why don't we just allow the trainers use anything they want and add it to the program. If they find something not disclosed then the get busted. That way the bettors and other horsemen know the full picture before the race.
It would take 2 pages for each race with the extra info
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and maybe a fine for peeing in a stall.
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I TRULY BELIEVE ITS A HUMAN ERROR
It was an ERROR to put those drugs into the horse! Excuses, excuses, excuses by these cheaters that once caught have NO idea how it happened. WHAT?! Drugs are stored in pharmacies. Only LICENSED health care providers, be it a pharmacist or a doctor of sorts, can LEGALLY dispense and order these drugs. A horse trainer has NO business in having ANY drug in their possession, be it in their trucks, homes, stalls, barns, etc.!
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It was an ERROR to put those drugs into the horse! Excuses, excuses, excuses by these cheaters that once caught have NO idea how it happened. WHAT?! Drugs are stored in pharmacies. Only LICENSED health care providers, be it a pharmacist or a doctor of sorts, can LEGALLY dispense and order these drugs. A horse trainer has NO business in having ANY drug in their possession, be it in their trucks, homes, stalls, barns, etc.!
👍👍👍👍👍👍
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You people really seem to think horse trainers and veterinarians are stupid. No shot they are using one of the most commonly prescribed pain killers on their horses. There are literally thousands of drugs out there that haven’t made it through the FDA process or failed it. The labs have no test for them and with the right connections they can easily slip out the back door of a drug company. This was happening lots when the authorities first got onto EPO. Per’s connections are not going with common easy to test for drugs
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My comment had nothing to do with a TCO2 positive. Only 1 way to get one is with baking soda. The cheapest prerace around. On of Burke’s employees got a little overboard on the recipe or the horse was dehydrated. Plain and simple. When I take my random drug test for work they don’t do TCO2 tests but they do have levels for all the commonly prescribed medications
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If they test the urine you might end up being the sire in a dna test.
ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 theres a first
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It makes no sense to use baking soda on a horse racing at the lowest level at The Meadows. You can say what you want about Burke but he did not build his operation to be the largest by far in all of harness racing by being stupid.
Random positives out of 0.0009 of the starts by a trainer is not the smoking gun. If those were the drugs the trainer was using there would be positives all over the place.
As someone who takes a number of prescription drugs every day, I can tell you I have found a few on the floor over the years. It happens. Everyone is looking in the wrong place.
“Because the bicarbonate [in the horse’s blood] is a physiological response to different factors, I don’t see how it can directly influence other factors,” said Sams. “For example, it is not going to be able to suppress the formation of lactate ion from lactic acid. The lactic acid is a byproduct of anaerobic metabolism of glucose. That’s what happens during the race.”
My have obviously never dealt with old racehorses
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It makes no sense to use baking soda on a horse racing at the lowest level at The Meadows. You can say what you want about Burke but he did not build his operation to be the largest by far in all of harness racing by being stupid.
Random positives out of 0.0009 of the starts by a trainer is not the smoking gun. If those were the drugs the trainer was using there would be positives all over the place.
As someone who takes a number of prescription drugs every day, I can tell you I have found a few on the floor over the years. It happens. Everyone is looking in the wrong place.
“Because the bicarbonate [in the horse’s blood] is a physiological response to different factors, I don’t see how it can directly influence other factors,” said Sams. “For example, it is not going to be able to suppress the formation of lactate ion from lactic acid. The lactic acid is a byproduct of anaerobic metabolism of glucose. That’s what happens during the race.”
And the horses you own with Burke are……………………
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I am just a fan. My post is not about Burke, he is an example. Most of the positives are meaningless. What they are doing is diverting attention from the real issue which is the things not being tested for. Most of the things I see positives for are not impacting performance. For example, there is no way a big trainer is going to be milk shaking a low level claimer.
Ban Lasix and maybe some of the positives will have some meaning.
Banning Lasix was done until New York State was the last state to Allow its use! Everyone knew what would happen when they allowed lasix—-coverup of other drugs? I’m going to ask my trainer what would happen if you took every racehorse off lasix? Professional trainers and educated horsemen please answer this! Not the wannabes here that know all the answers! Thank you
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I am just a fan. My post is not about Burke, he is an example. Most of the positives are meaningless. What they are doing is diverting attention from the real issue which is the things not being tested for. Most of the things I see positives for are not impacting performance. For example, there is no way a big trainer is going to be milk shaking a low level claimer.
Ban Lasix and maybe some of the positives will have some meaning.
Banning Lasix would create a problem by contributing to the already stressed aftercare programs i.m.o.! I understand that every horse on Lasix is not a certified bleeder,but by Banning the long time go-to will create a new one by another name. The number of positives will also climb when the experimentation begins. I think that rather than just using a needle to prevent it,there needs to be a feed supplement or something similar. If we eliminate the needles we can control what goes into the needle!
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Contenation is the latest excuse that can’t be traced. Just like years ago with cocaine on tongue ties
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Banning Lasix would greatly reduce the horse supply. Not only does it help bleeders but it is also very useful in horses that have pericarditis
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Banning Lasix would greatly reduce the horse supply. Not only does it help bleeders but it is also very useful in horses that have pericarditis
All due respect-banning Lasix will not harm Horse racing. HISA is doing a 3 year study on all horses to address this. Before Lasix-Some horses dropped out-BUT real horsemen worked on horses health more -now its just a "inject to collect" game. When Lasix was introduced--in T Breds- the number of starts per horse DECREASED but the horse drop out rate did reduce.. End result however-- the number of horses available to race did not decline at all because starts/horse without Lasix was 30% Higher than horses that are now on Lasix. Due to Lasix side effects.
No Lasix- hasnt affected international horse racing in Both harness and Tbreds. They are fine without it. In fact since Lasix has been banned in some Tbreds races-the International horse numbers competing in these events has INCREASED as they are now not racing at a disadvantage.
There is little doubt that Lasix is a performance enhancer .The Jury is out however if it is all due to lower bleeding rates--or simply because it raises Bicarb levels in the blood and lowers body weight-both enhance performance.
So a bad bleeder you will be in the game BUT most are fine without it--as seen in Europe, down Under, Japan, Middle East etc. All not on Lasix.
Vets here want Lasix to stay--huge money earner.
IMHO-from a purely public perception--since public believes all horses are on drugs-as noted when they pick up a program and see every horse drugged up on Lasix--the Sport is better off without it.
I personally would be happier to breed to horses that didnt need Lasix than ones who were on it--because as proven in Germany---only breeding to horses that were Group 1 type-without Lasix-has proven to reduce the incidence of producing bad bleeders. French trotters-now seem superior to our trotters and stallions who all race on Lasix--while theirs do not.