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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: toothman on September 13, 2023, 06:19:41 PM

Title: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: toothman on September 13, 2023, 06:19:41 PM
I've seen a whole bunch of big names on the NY/NJ/PA circuit associated with race fixing, paper bags, colluding with others, etc.
I remember the phrase "all go" back in the day.
Are there drivers out there who are or were "all go"?- In the good old days or today?
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: comeonman on September 13, 2023, 06:55:58 PM
all the drivers today are all go all the time ......
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Miguel_Sanchez on September 13, 2023, 07:00:33 PM
Kakaly and Zeron don't classify as "all go"
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: toothman on September 13, 2023, 07:00:44 PM
all the drivers today are all go all the time ......

COME ON, MAN!
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: PucksnHorses on September 13, 2023, 07:16:14 PM
All the grand circuit drivers are friends and talk to each other. They know every race beforehand, who is blasting off the gate and who is taking back. They know who is on the hot horse each and every race.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: comeonman on September 13, 2023, 07:21:52 PM
lol  pretty funny.......so why you bet ?
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Par Four on September 13, 2023, 07:23:57 PM
All the grand circuit drivers are friends and talk to each other. They know every race beforehand, who is blasting off the gate and who is taking back. They know who is on the hot horse each and every race.

They also fly private together
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: PucksnHorses on September 13, 2023, 07:24:47 PM
I miss the old days when most of the drivers hated each other, or at least were not friends.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: toothman on September 13, 2023, 07:34:51 PM
I Should have been more specific----day-in-day out overnight, not stakes or grand circuit races...like a sonny patterson or a carmine abbatiello
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: comeonman on September 13, 2023, 07:38:03 PM
At the top tracks those days are  gone. tracks with inflated purses regardless of handle....if guys are eating from behind tonight that's is not a fixed race or a non try
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Fuguzzi on September 14, 2023, 12:19:03 AM
Ray Schnittker - if you want or need details I will provide
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: bello on September 14, 2023, 12:06:07 PM
Drivers will listen to trainers and owners. Period.

Virtually every stable today know how to position their horses through managing their way through the NW $xxx in last xxx races system.

And with so many tracks to ship to that are on close proximity to each other, the system becomes even more complex.

The largest stables, like the Burke and Cullipher stables are masters at this. Many horses are "dirtied up" at smaller tracks using this methodology to get a price on the ultimate class drop.

Drivers know this and follow directions.

This is part of the game. Far fewer "fixed" numbers than their used to be. But I DO NOT bet or watch Yonkers so I cannot speak for what goes on there.

Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Fuguzzi on September 14, 2023, 12:24:44 PM
Drivers will listen to trainers and owners. Period.

Virtually every stable today know how to position their horses through managing their way through the NW $xxx in last xxx races system.

And with so many tracks to ship to that are on close proximity to each other, the system becomes even more complex.

The largest stables, like the Burke and Cullipher stables are masters at this. Many horses are "dirtied up" at smaller tracks using this methodology to get a price on the ultimate class drop.

Drivers know this and follow directions.

This is part of the game. Far fewer "fixed" numbers than their used to be. But I DO NOT bet or watch Yonkers so I cannot speak for what goes on there.
You lost me at drivers listen to owner and trainers. HUH?
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: bello on September 14, 2023, 12:45:58 PM
You lost me at drivers listen to owner and trainers. HUH?

In the old days the comment above was not true as " enveloped" drivers listened to the bagman.

Nowadays, since purses are higher and there are fewer fixed races, the game is about classification. If an owners or trainer is looking for class relief to get into a winning spot " by losing", their driver will listen.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: toothman on September 14, 2023, 01:15:03 PM
Are there drivers who arent as great with favorites as they should be?
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Fuguzzi on September 14, 2023, 01:38:15 PM
In the old days the comment above was not true as " enveloped" drivers listened to the bagman.

Nowadays, since purses are higher and there are fewer fixed races, the game is about classification. If an owners or trainer is looking for class relief to get into a winning spot " by losing", their driver will listen.
Makes sense
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Stan durbread on September 14, 2023, 01:40:37 PM
In the old days the comment above was not true as " enveloped" drivers listened to the bagman.

Nowadays, since purses are higher and there are fewer fixed races, the game is about classification. If an owners or trainer is looking for class relief to get into a winning spot " by losing", their driver will listen.
Maybe a lesser driver listens to the owner or trainer.  The top guys don’t and don’t have too. If you take them off your horses they still got a few others to pick from next week. With inflated purses and nonexistent handles there is no reason to set up a bet
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: bello on September 14, 2023, 01:46:17 PM
The reason I love playing the classification system as it exists today is most bettors still don't get it and the opportunities it presents.

I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: rainman2 on September 14, 2023, 02:06:56 PM
The reason I love playing the classification system as it exists today is most bettors still don't get it and the opportunities it presents.

I'll leave it at that.

The owners, trainers, and drivers also have to succeed on this opportunity too. There are also many others doing the same thing at the same time.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Indian24 on September 14, 2023, 02:26:12 PM
Honest drivers laughable all of them are crooks tmbz1 The only time they ain't cheating is when the big purses are on the line...
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Fuguzzi on September 14, 2023, 03:00:20 PM
Honest drivers laughable all of them are crooks tmbz1 The only time they ain't cheating is when the big purses are on the line...
Buddy Gilmour worst driver in history on favorites. It pissed him off to be the favorite. he would constantly look at the board including at the start if he could see it. Dumped faves even if he had no other interest in the race. buudy had this really nice guy owner who off and on had a couple with me. Guy had cash and was very generous. Buddy would tell him to bet, the guy would and then Buddy would run all over his money. I once gather the courage to ask him why he treated "so and so'  so badly. His response , "Because so and so bets with both hands, He never leaves anything for anyone else, so FUCK HIM!" saw this happen over and over.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: theokodjak26 on September 14, 2023, 03:18:27 PM
My Buddy Chimo  73cv.2
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: wiseowl on September 14, 2023, 03:32:26 PM
I would like to hear all the details on RAY SCHNITTKER and not bullshit I know you have nothing.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Emperor Dapple on September 14, 2023, 07:11:14 PM
My Buddy Chimo  73cv.2

John Gilmour's horse...
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Fuguzzi on September 14, 2023, 07:39:51 PM
I would like to hear all the details on RAY SCHNITTKER and not bullshit I know you have nothing.
When Ray broke in, I was young enuf 1986 to still do paddocks for people including ray whose barn grew rapidly and soon he would race 5 or 6 on friday or Saturday nights. I paddocked horses like Town Drunk N and Abdul Hanover. Never Covert Action, that went to Kenny , his asst.  From those early days through now, my awareness and ogservation was that Ray just wanted to win, ran over money without care and did no business. On two occasions after, I hate my own horses years later I asked Ray to go down the road with horses we were setting up for a bet. He did so both times and both horses won  the first 23 - 1  the second took moeny from somewhere and ended up 5 -1. If anyone knows of any conspiracy or betting scandal involving Ray, despite what you may or may not think of his ability. I would be happy to hear of it. So that's my story, Owl, take or leave it. You must be some miserable prick, you often have a nasty attitude on here.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: wiseowl on September 14, 2023, 10:42:20 PM
I also worked for Ray great guy nothing more to be said.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Fuguzzi on September 14, 2023, 11:23:01 PM
I also worked for Ray great guy nothing more to be said.
Then you know i know what i am saying and was being honest and complimenting him.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: rainman2 on September 15, 2023, 12:00:33 AM
I would like to hear all the details on RAY SCHNITTKER and not bullshit I know you have nothing.

Ask Ray about his early driving days at Batavia in the early 1980's!  I watched a race with Ray and Jose Delgado with $ 3000 claimers in 1.00.3 and the race went 2.05.3 with the horses on their hands and knees to the wire!
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Fuguzzi on September 15, 2023, 12:07:21 AM
Ask Ray about his early driving days at Batavia in the early 1980's!  I watched a race with Ray and Jose Delgado with $ 3000 claimers in 1.00.3 and the race went 2.05.3 with the horses on their hands and knees to the wire!
Ok, and?   What difference does that race make in the question about Ray's integrity.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: rainman2 on September 15, 2023, 12:16:17 AM
Ok, and?   What difference does that race make in the question about Ray's integrity.

He tried this race!  Makes it  honest!
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Mailbox Money on September 15, 2023, 12:03:46 PM
I miss the old days when most of the drivers hated each other, or at least were not friends.
Those where the days when it was man against man and clique against clique! Something as petty as a parking dispute in the backstretch could and would affect the outcome of a race. Guys going to the stick to close holes and prevent others from clearing added unexpected strategies to races! The new regime of drivers has turned the sport into golf on a sulky!
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: jupiter on September 15, 2023, 01:18:09 PM
From the srart of his career, Ray never gave a shit what anybody thought. He did it his way, he was the hardest working man in racing. He drove his own rig, warmed up his own horses, drove them and shipped back home. Didn't matter where, he also had good help and good partners, wouldn't call them owners. Paul was the partner not jst an employee. You can say what you want about Douse, he was a working machine when he worked there, Ray never took shit from anybody.   
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Fuguzzi on September 15, 2023, 03:17:16 PM
From the srart of his career, Ray never gave a shit what anybody thought. He did it his way, he was the hardest working man in racing. He drove his own rig, warmed up his own horses, drove them and shipped back home. Didn't matter where, he also had good help and good partners, wouldn't call them owners. Paul was the partner not jst an employee. You can say what you want about Douse, he was a working machine when he worked there, Ray never took shit from anybody.
Agreed! Honest people generally conduct themselves this way. I will always believe he has been a very honest and forthright driver and horseman.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Indian24 on September 15, 2023, 04:12:32 PM
Buddy Gilmour worst driver in history on favorites. It pissed him off to be the favorite. he would constantly look at the board including at the start if he could see it. Dumped faves even if he had no other interest in the race. buudy had this really nice guy owner who off and on had a couple with me. Guy had cash and was very generous. Buddy would tell him to bet, the guy would and then Buddy would run all over his money. I once gather the courage to ask him why he treated "so and so'  so badly. His response , "Because so and so bets with both hands, He never leaves anything for anyone else, so FUCK HIM!" saw this happen over and over.
Haha that's fucked up and funny at the same time. I can see both sides here.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Balmoral buzz on September 15, 2023, 07:09:17 PM
In the old days the comment above was not true as " enveloped" drivers listened to the bagman.

Nowadays, since purses are higher and there are fewer fixed races, the game is about classification. If an owners or trainer is looking for class relief to get into a winning spot " by losing", their driver will listen.
I totally disagree. These sons of a bitches today all want to win and go full throttle every quarter every race. Only way a driver will listen to trainer/owner and keep a horses classified is it’s burke or Erv or a big stable. And even then these guys just want to win win win. At Hoosier there couldn’t be more of a bunch of no talent fucks who are clueless as how to take it easy on one.
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Mailbox Money on September 15, 2023, 08:48:44 PM
Honest Drivers is an oxymoron !!!! ngc3
Title: Re: HONEST DRIVERS
Post by: Stan durbread on September 15, 2023, 10:36:44 PM
I totally disagree. These sons of a bitches today all want to win and go full throttle every quarter every race. Only way a driver will listen to trainer/owner and keep a horses classified is it’s burke or Erv or a big stable. And even then these guys just want to win win win. At Hoosier there couldn’t be more of a bunch of no talent fucks who are clueless as how to take it easy on one.


So what are you saying?? The Hoosier drivers drive for the people betting the race instead of the trainers
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