Author Topic: Why Standardbred times have gotten faster but thoroughbreds have stayed the same  (Read 3114 times)

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gh2009

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I remember going to the old Georgetown Raceway in Delaware on a snowy Saturday night and the fastest race went in 2:20. In those days, if the first quarter went in under 30 seconds the crowd would be in a loud buzz.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2024, 07:03:33 PM by gh2009 »

The Thorn

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I hope that is only your opinion. I only raced overnights and only claimed horses with tactile speed for a reason, to suck along, especially on half mile tracks. I enjoy Nascar and thus the word drafting. In the 60's thru 80's, I WAS a big part of the harness world and I can't believe YOU said these things.
The poster was saying that harness people BET on horses with fast times that sucked along. You are talking about BUYING them to cash purses and or milk classes like Pat Lachance.  Big Difference.  I like your way.

Any1Left

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Reasons for faster times,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,FASTER RACING SURFACES,,,,,,,,,,,,FASTER BIKES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BETTER DRUGS,,,,,,,,,,,,HORSE TRAVEL WAY LESS DISTANCE WITH NO HUB RAIL AS GUYS DRIVE TIGHT TO THOSE PYLONS INSTEAD OF 1 YARD AWAY,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tHAT IS LOTS OF REASONS WHY,,,,,,,,,  THIS WAS A VERY EASY ANSWER,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

kooter for hipin

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The poster was saying that harness people BET on horses with fast times that sucked along. You are talking about BUYING them to cash purses and or milk classes like Pat Lachance.  Big Difference.  I like your way.

Exactly like Mike LaChance. Clever observation. There is a big difference between Grand Circuit and Overnight racing especially since I had my brother as trainer.

The Unstable

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I think it is the race bikes.  the carbon fiver wheels have no drag and weigh almost nothing.  A jockey still weighs a 122 pounds.  Drugs play a role in it but the same ones are used on TBreds so I don't believe that is the main reason.  Also I believe tracks like the Red mile might be intentionally a little short as the Breeders are dying for fast times befire the sales. Look what happened to the times at Northfield when the distance was fixed. 

SeattleSlew

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Reasons for faster times,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,FASTER RACING SURFACES,,,,,,,,,,,,FASTER BIKES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BETTER DRUGS,,,,,,,,,,,,HORSE TRAVEL WAY LESS DISTANCE WITH NO HUB RAIL AS GUYS DRIVE TIGHT TO THOSE PYLONS INSTEAD OF 1 YARD AWAY,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tHAT IS LOTS OF REASONS WHY,,,,,,,,,  THIS WAS A VERY EASY ANSWER,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Agree; however BREEDING and 2 YO purse-incentives are also key factors with regard to not only the faster times for the top horses, but the faster AVERAGE times.  For many years there have been horses who have come along and paced sub-1:50 miles, but today so many more of them are doing it, and at a much younger age.

If you look at the RECORD fastest times over the years, the ticks down have slowed dramatically as there has been minimal movement in the all-time pacing record in almost 20 years.

1906 Dan Patch 1:55
1966 Bret Hanover 1:53.3
1971  Steady Star 1:52
1992 Artsplace 1:49.2
2006 Holborn Hanover 1:46.4
2024 Bulldog Hanover 1:45.4

Not all of those are "apples to apples" as some were time trials.  However, for the 20 years from 1971 to 1992 the record dropped by 2 3/5 seconds.  For the 14 years from 1992 to 2006 the record dropped by 2 3/5 seconds; however now it has taken 18 years for the record to drop by just 1 second. 
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 06:27:51 AM by SeattleSlew »

gh2009

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A horse can look good on paper because of his fast times, even if he's no good. When you see a horse with no parked-out marks but fast times, he's usually just sucking along for a purse check and can't leave the rail, but some people who didn't see the race may bet him because his times are good then can't understand why he's up the track in a slower race.

Meadow Ford

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Don't forget "catch drivers"!
"Turn'em and Burn'em"
Let next week's catch driver worry about next week. 
I am just an old horse trainer still going around in circles. Sometimes Fast. Sometimes Half-Fast.

The Exporter

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The Standardbred has greatly improved as a breed in the past 50 years or more. T-breds run a natural gait. There is only so much you can improve on speed. Standardbreds race on a unnatural gait, pacing. The trotter is races on a natural gait but, it is not one for speed.
 The 50+ years of increased speed is defiantly a combination of all things mentioned. Breeding, conformation, equipment , race bike, race tempo, track surfaces and medications.
 How much more can it improve? Well, I don't think we have touched the bottom yet.

The Thorn

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"Turn'em and Burn'em"


Interesting.  Who said that first? Joe O'Brien or Puggy Pearson?

Nowadays that should be Yannick's catch phrase.  11.wp

kooter for hipin

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Interesting.  Who said that first? Joe O'Brien or Puggy Pearson?

Nowadays that should be Yannick's catch phrase.  11.wp

Clever post. True in both respects. Yannick is a true speed merchant and Pudgy is a true gambler of renown. How about Titanic Thompson ?

In my previous post I meant Pat not Mike LaChance, Sorry!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 03:02:20 PM by kooter for hipin »

kooter for hipin

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Very easy.  Thoroughbreds have peaked out through breeding.  You won't see them get any faster and you will see more and more breakdowns because of inbreeding and evolution of breeding 3x2 and 2x2

  True!  I think there is a thinning in the gene pool with thoroughbreds as what is happening with standardbreds in the Adios-Tar Heel line.

bond

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My take is that it is a result of artifical insemination. The need for live covers greatly reduces the number of potential offspring for any one sire. In harness racing, you already have a much smaller pool of offspring each year, and I am guessing that a small number of high quality sires dominate the gene pool since artificial insemination predominates.

Another issue may very well be that thoroughbreds have lost so much durability that few horses are still sound and racing when they are fully mature.

When I was a kid a good thoroughbred could go around 1:34 for a mile....and a million years later that is basically the same. For standardbreds, I am old to enough to remember when a sub 2 minute mile meant something. I cannot recall the last race I watched that was not in a blizzard where the winner did not go under 2 minutes. I guess I would have to go a fair and watch some 2yos nickel bred trotters for that pleasure nowadays.

 tmbz1Spot on.
 Main Factor !!! 1)A standardbred stallion these days-can breed close to 300 foals a year(sent oseas or the frozen semen is)--hell even when hes dead they still use frozen semen. -so This ensures that the elite horses are bred to the best mares in greater numbers compared to Tbreds -and the breed has improved steadily last 50 years.
Tbreds have a natural gait-which hasnt changed last 50 years-so the level of improvement is nowhere near the Sbreds. Sbreds gait and temperaments esp in trotters-has greatly improved last 50 years and there is still improvement there. HOWEVER because of the smaller gene pool--expect more unsound horses.
2)Along with this-the bikes are faster--in fact this was demonstrated with the Cheetah bike--that bike was seconds faster I have been told by experienced horsemen. Opinion is that todays bikes and wheels-are now almost level with the Cheetah bike.
 
3) Now add the driver factor--they are now more aggressive and they are definitely better than those of yesteryear.
John Campbell was one of the greats--but if he was driving today-he would definitely not be as effective--still win races but hes no Dexter Dunn.Even greats like Takter and Ake-attest to this.
Tbreds--jockeys are no better than they were 30-40 years ago.
I dont buy the pre race drug factor--as I dont believe Tbreds dont use anything and Sbreds are all loaded to the gills.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2024, 04:59:45 PM by bond »

JT

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tmbz1Spot on.
 Main Factor !!! 1)A standardbred stallion these days-can breed close to 300 foals a year(sent oseas or the frozen semen is)--hell even when hes dead they still use frozen semen. -so This ensures that the elite horses are bred to the best mares in greater numbers compared to Tbreds -and the breed has improved steadily last 50 years.
Tbreds have a natural gait-which hasnt changed last 50 years-so the level of improvement is nowhere near the Sbreds. Sbreds gait and temperaments esp in trotters-has greatly improved last 50 years and there is still improvement there. HOWEVER because of the smaller gene pool--expect more unsound horses.
2)Along with this-the bikes are faster--in fact this was demonstrated with the Cheetah bike--that bike was seconds faster I have been told by experienced horsemen. Opinion is that todays bikes and wheels-are now almost level with the Cheetah bike.
 
3) Now add the driver factor--they are now more aggressive and they are definitely better than those of yesteryear.
John Campbell was one of the greats--but if he was driving today-he would definitely not be as effective--still win races but hes no Dexter Dunn.Even greats like Takter and Ake-attest to this.
Tbreds--jockeys are no better than they were 30-40 years ago.
I dont buy the pre race drug factor--as I dont believe Tbreds dont use anything and Sbreds are all loaded to the gills.
Sorry bond I agree with almost everything you said except the GOAT John Campbell. Saying he is no Dexter Dunn is a huge stretch. Listen Dexter is the best driver in the world right now and it's not close.. but saying John couldn't adapt to today's horses and drivers is foolish. They both actually drive in a very similar manner.. a thinking man's driver, not run and gun every race. Maybe in 10 years I would agree about Dexter being the best ever.. but he has a ways to go for that title.

Any1Left

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Sorry bond I agree with almost everything you said except the GOAT John Campbell. Saying he is no Dexter Dunn is a huge stretch. Listen Dexter is the best driver in the world right now and it's not close.. but saying John couldn't adapt to today's horses and drivers is foolish. They both actually drive in a very similar manner.. a thinking man's driver, not run and gun every race. Maybe in 10 years I would agree about Dexter being the best ever.. but he has a ways to go for that title.
The great era of drivers with HERVE FILLION ,,,RON PIERCE,,,RON WAPLES,,,BILLY O,,,JACKIE MO,,,WALTER CASE...MICHEL LA CHANCE,,,,LUC OULETTE,,,DAVE MILLER,,,CAT MANZI,,STEVE CONDREN,,,TREVOR RITCHIE,, TIM TETRICK,,,ANTHONY MORGEN,,,,and today it is actually are 5-10 good drivers today and who cares what AKE SAYS ABOUT DRIVERS AS HE DRIVES HIS OWN AND HE IS SUPER BAD,,,,,,,, Tetrick and miller are not even close to their prime and both still top 5

 

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