Why did T-Breds remain popular & Harness go down tubes ?

[LimeTime]

 Many T-bred tracks remain popular while harness tracks disappear. Even if a casino shows up- horse racing is a sport and a  different experience. There has to be other reasons why a state like Michigan had about 8 tracks  and is soon be zero. I think an aspect of the situation is a lack of institutional control over quality control that slowly eroded public confidence. People are not stupid- when the 3/5 shot does not pull out flys like a bullet to get 3rd or 4th and the gimmicks come in short it breaks peoples spirit. The public pays for judges and stewards to protect racing instead they protect the racers. This effects harness racing more because a harness horse  can race 50 times a year where the T-bred has to try more due to limited outs-so its a built in "problem" with harness racing.

[Open bridle]

Same reason the  Kentucky Derby despite all it's scandals remains more popular than the Hambletonian. It's a mainstream sport. Harness racing has grown from it's grassroots beginnings. You don't see t-breds racing aroung county fair tracks.

[Generation XYZ]

Thoroughbred Organizations have accepted HISA, as a means to cleaning up the sport. TB's are also welcoming of bridging a gap with the general populations, and rectifying the public persona of its segment of the sport. Harness racing, aaaaaa little bit defunct in these areas.

[Yonkers1A]

I blame Faraldough, he’s ruined buggy racing for at least 50 years

[Mailbox Money]

Curt Gowdy and Chris Shankle had this runners on one of the 3 Television stations that everyone had in their homes.The first thing that people who have been to the races a time or two say is"I will never go again because you can see the drivers holding the horses back". Does anyone have an idea to change PUBLIC PERCEPTION?

[The Thorn]

The first thing that people who have been to the races a time or two say is"I will never go again because you can see the drivers holding the horses back". Does anyone have an idea to change PUBLIC PERCEPTION?

I had a business partner 30 years ago in a different arena and he could not understand the concept of rating and why drivers do that. Nothing I could do to make him understand the strategy.  People think a horse race should be all out all the time and there is no way to change that.

[Brown jug]

the perception of the two breds  are light years apart
we know the problem with harness racing
and i am not suggesting tbreds dont have their issues behind the scenes with trainers etc
but watch the races, the tbreds always look like they are flying and they tend to be more in a pack at the finish, harness usually pass each other rather quickly , you will see some tbreds race as a team or a threesome for half the stretch right to the wire

also because there is no bike it never looks like tbreds are in a box they cant get through( although not true)
tbreds race much less so seems they need to try every race  to make money
compare the races , to a casual fan they look nothing alike and everyone would say they prefer tbreds

[camfan12]

I would add "breaking" to the list... over the years I have taken many people to the harness track for their first time... the ones that make their first be on a horse that breaks usually never make another one.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

It's a great question and there are innumerable answers. The answers and the solutions come from a variety of aspects of the sport and the industry. Yes, the t-bred game can still produce monster days and handles. 50 to 75k people and 50 million plus handles. But in both games on track handle and attendance are down and will continue to go down. It's the new norm. On track handle can no longer be the goal. It has to be all in handle. But the monster and handles days can still be a part of a stable, healthy, successful business, and not be an anomaly or exception.

The future of sport and industry is going to be entertainment venues, and yes, will include other forms of gambling. If a casino company owns it, they will want out of the racing business. They will lobby for decoupling. Unless it's a Gulfstream, and unfortunately there's a casino not too far from them. But at the Meadowlands, yes, give Gural a casino! My opinion is he will not only not seek decoupling, but he will continue to support the racing side of the facility. Unlike Yonkers. Good thread.

[LimeTime]

I would add "breaking" to the list... over the years I have taken many people to the harness track for their first time... the ones that make their first be on a horse that breaks usually never make another one.

Yea, Newbies are horrified when they see their selection break stride in front of the grandstand- theres a collective gasp, when in reality you often can get better prices on trot races because they do break more.

[LimeTime]

It's a great question and there are innumerable answers. The answers and the solutions come from a variety of aspects of the sport and the industry. Yes, the t-bred game can still produce monster days and handles. 50 to 75k people and 50 million plus handles. But in both games on track handle and attendance are down and will continue to go down. It's the new norm. On track handle can no longer be the goal. It has to be all in handle. But the monster and handles days can still be a part of a stable, healthy, successful business, and not be an anomaly or exception.

The future of sport and industry is going to be entertainment venues, and yes, will include other forms of gambling. If a casino company owns it, they will want out of the racing business. They will lobby for decoupling. Unless it's a Gulfstream, and unfortunately there's a casino not too far from them. But at the Meadowlands, yes, give Gural a casino! My opinion is he will not only not seek decoupling, but he will continue to support the racing side of the facility. Unlike Yonkers. Good thread.

Often the horse track wont exist without the racino but the horse racing then becomes a neglected sideline business where anything goes.

[horses first]

Harness remains the same stale mile of racing while short track racing is get to the lead and shut it down. Then race the last quarter of a mile. The harness industry only promotes fast miles and new records. It's the only thing they can hang onto while the future isn't bright. The handle on weekend cards when the big M is racing has that same 9-10M churn between all the tracks. The big M can do a 13 race handle of 3m give or take any side of that number. A track like Tampa Downs a B/C track with 8 to 9 races will out handle the number 1 harness track. Thoroughbreds still have the punters that can add to the horsemans purse account with gaming dollars that keeps some tracks alive while the added gaming casinos make the purse account thrive. That's just the short answer.

[Grandstand Handicapper]

Often the horse track wont exist without the racino but the horse racing then becomes a neglected sideline business where anything goes.

That's my point. And it won't happen with "horsemen" like Gural. It will happen with a casino company that views racing as the necessary evil until they can decouple. We will see less race days and less racetracks. Field size might be stagnant, but eventually will increase with consolidation. I for one want to see Gural get a casino, and I don't want to see an Indian tribe-based company get a nearby competing casino with a lower tax rate and tax concessions. I also want to see other alternative forms of revenue for the remaining, surviving premier tracks that we will see. The sport and the industry needs a new model.

[wisha roder]

the perception of the two breds  are light years apart
we know the problem with harness racing
and i am not suggesting tbreds dont have their issues behind the scenes with trainers etc
but watch the races, the tbreds always look like they are flying and they tend to be more in a pack at the finish, harness usually pass each other rather quickly , you will see some tbreds race as a team or a threesome for half the stretch right to the wire

also because there is no bike it never looks like tbreds are in a box they cant get through( although not true)
tbreds race much less so seems they need to try every race  to make money
compare the races , to a casual fan they look nothing alike and everyone would say they prefer tbreds

There are many people who prefer harness racing.  In our opinion the harness races have more exciting finishes.  I've seen far more races with 5-6-7 horses wide at the finish in a harness races than a tb race where they look like they're staggering to the wire.  The throwaway breds also have a huge injury issue...which beget the HISA bullshit.  Non-horse racing people telling horsemen how to train a horse.  I would agree the throwaway breds are far more entertaining to watch in the starting gate as opposed to the standardbreds quietly lining up behind the starting gate.  I give those little people credit for risking their lives on those lunatics.  Harness racing is exciting and doing just fine. 

[Superfecta]

Yea, Newbies are horrified when they see their selection break stride in front of the grandstand- theres a collective gasp, when in reality you often can get better prices on trot races because they do break more.

Newbies ?
Collective Gasp ?
What track are you at ?