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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: wiggles44 on May 05, 2019, 12:12:08 PM

Title: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on May 05, 2019, 12:12:08 PM
off to a great start for the 2019 season
 ngc3

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $36,700
Total Handle: $23,670
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on May 12, 2019, 09:56:44 AM
Saturday May 11

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $41,400
Total Handle: $18,343

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $41,100
Total Handle: $33,672

Haiwatha still in the red, Kawartha starting in the red

 ngc3

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Artsplace on May 12, 2019, 10:11:54 AM
How's about also listing the profitable ones and also speaking in terms of principles of materiality when you look at the losses at smaller tracks vs impact of closures. Idiot.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on May 12, 2019, 10:16:06 AM
"impact of closure" such a hollow argument. You could use that as an excuse to prop up most failing businesses...
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Artsplace on May 12, 2019, 12:05:26 PM
"impact of closure" such a hollow argument. You could use that as an excuse to prop up most failing businesses...

Do the math and let us know which will cost Johnny Taxpayer more.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on May 12, 2019, 03:26:19 PM
Do the math and let us know which will cost Johnny Taxpayer more.

Many economics texts and studies have done the math: Subsidizing cost the taxpayer infinitely more...If subsidizing was such a net positive, then it would make sense to subsidize with infinity dollars.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: spaheaven on May 12, 2019, 03:32:40 PM
They dont simulcast, at least not to east coast.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: DeeJennerit on May 12, 2019, 06:16:02 PM
"impact of closure" such a hollow argument. You could use that as an excuse to prop up most failing businesses...

Agreed.  So tired of the "impact of closure" argument.  Treat it like any other business and let only the strong survive, which would make the product so much less watered down, so much better and might give the industry the boost it needs to start climbing the mountain again.  Christ, drivers might actually have to be competitive again instead of beer buddies.  Such simple business principles but the simpletons in harness racing can't figure it out because of their incessant entitlement.  The government didn't throw a bunch of money at Sears and Target and so many other long gone business when they went bad because of poor product, lack of attendance and so on.

Ugh, don't get me started... 
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: PIGLAND on May 12, 2019, 07:01:23 PM
i think if most would close the few left might be able to so a profit ,but as of now i dont think any track shows a profit
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on May 19, 2019, 10:14:04 AM
Saturday May 18

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $41,800
Total Handle: $17,646

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $41,300
Total Handle: $32,682

 11.wj
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on May 20, 2019, 11:03:56 AM
Sunday May 19

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $37,800
Total Handle: $42,026

Flamboro Downs
Total Purse:  $538,551
Total Handle: $538,374
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on May 26, 2019, 09:08:43 AM
Saturday May 25

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $44,300
Total Handle: $17,507
getting worse

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $40,100
Total Handle: $21,759
i read the french fries were good

 ngc3
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: mike on May 27, 2019, 05:30:38 AM
so how is this any worse than the nimber of times gm ford has been bailed out to keep guys making 80 grand a year some of those small trainers make almost nothing for working 80 hours a week. sooner see this than ceos making 2 million a year go hang with the small guy for a week I would not want there life
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: The Exporter on May 27, 2019, 07:19:48 AM
Do the math and let us know which will cost Johnny Taxpayer more.

You speak as if those affected will never earn again. Life goes on.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on May 27, 2019, 10:28:31 AM
Sunday May 26

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,500
Total Handle: $24,571

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $36,900
Total Handle: $23,334

lets add two more to the list
 11.wj
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: eyeinthesky on May 29, 2019, 05:51:54 AM
Hey Wiggles

You forgot this one
Cheap horses..even a $ 3000  claiming race..and a few around $ 6000

Tuesday May 28

Fort Erie  WITH  ONLY 9 Races
Total Purse:  $129,300
Total Handle: $102,374      Live         Total    Handle   $ 1 , 116, 808

This is Welfare Working

People were actually at the races..just like your Yonkers and Harrahs ..and Poconose..yah ?
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: In front on May 29, 2019, 07:04:23 AM
You speak as if those affected will never earn again. Life goes on.

Exactly correct, subsidies just delay the inevitable and are very inefficient
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 02, 2019, 10:14:42 AM
Saturday June 1

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $48,200
Total Handle: $26,859

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $42,700
Total Handle: $19,364

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $40,100
Total Handle: $22,653

 :1
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on June 03, 2019, 08:26:09 AM
Hey Wiggles

You forgot this one
Cheap horses..even a $ 3000  claiming race..and a few around $ 6000

Tuesday May 28

Fort Erie  WITH  ONLY 9 Races
Total Purse:  $129,300
Total Handle: $102,374      Live         Total    Handle   $ 1 , 116, 808

This is Welfare Working

People were actually at the races..just like your Yonkers and Harrahs ..and Poconose..yah ?


Quote
This is Welfare Working

Wrong. Thoroughbred racing would handle that no matter what the purses. See: Mountaineer.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Duke on June 03, 2019, 12:11:55 PM
Sad really, Kawartha handled $120,000 on Tuesdays so what do they do...race Saturdays against WEG.
Can't help but shake your head.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 03, 2019, 05:11:34 PM
Sunday June 2

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,800
Total Handle: $29,926

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 09, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Saturday June 8

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $43,200
Total Handle: $21,472

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $45,100
Total Handle: $20,985

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $31,400
Total Handle: $20,266

 :1
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 10, 2019, 05:40:28 AM
Sunday June 9

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,400
Total Handle: $29,034

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $46,620
Total Handle: $25,605
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: DeeJennerit on June 10, 2019, 12:23:57 PM
Sunday June 9

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,400
Total Handle: $29,034

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $46,620
Total Handle: $25,605

Put these numbers in front of one of the many entitled Ontario horsemen and they'd look at them and you like you had three heads.  Name me another business in operation that could survive given this plus-minus.  I say scrap all the tracks that can't support themselves (handle greater than purse) and may only the strong survive, just like in any other business.  So what if there's no Hiawatha, no Clinton, etc..  Maybe the product and overall competition will get a little stronger with less watering down to all these dump tracks, which might in turn lead to less buddy-buddy driving tactics, which might lead to, which might lead to, which might lead to. 
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: mike on June 10, 2019, 03:45:02 PM
how is this welfare when a parking lot full of 70 thou trucks are parked there these guys pay taxes then how many times did the gov bail  out ford gm  bombbardia  while the average small company gets fuck all
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 16, 2019, 09:30:23 AM
Saturday June 15

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $50,400
Total Handle: $17,895

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $43,700
Total Handle: $18,522

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $41,000
Total Handle: $28,917

 11.tb
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 17, 2019, 05:40:44 AM
Sunday June 16

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,600
Total Handle: $36,011

Dresden Raceway
ALL RACES CANCELLED
DUE TO UNSAFE TRACK CONDITIONS
(first week in the green)
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: In front on June 17, 2019, 06:30:55 AM
Sunday June 16

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,600
Total Handle: $36,011

Dresden Raceway
ALL RACES CANCELLED
DUE TO UNSAFE TRACK CONDITIONS
(first week in the green)

Lol, first week in the green

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 23, 2019, 12:22:18 PM
Saturday June 22

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,200
Total Handle: $18,123

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $43,300
Total Handle: $22,789

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $40,800
Total Handle: $33,363

Pissing money away
One weekend at a time
 angbk
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: firhill on June 23, 2019, 01:47:56 PM
Lol, first week in the green

Well, not really.

I believe the track is paying $300 to each horse that was entered (except for the ones in the pacing series)
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: DeeJennerit on June 23, 2019, 02:04:00 PM
18K in handle? for the entire card?

Correct.  Can you imagine?  But if you talk to horsemen in Ontario, they would never agree that there are too many tracks.  They'd make the point that entitled horsemen in the Hanover/Kawartha/Clinton/Dresden/Sarnia areas need to make a living and it supports local farmers and so on, all the typical horseman bullshit, but guess what? The Patrick Shepherds and Richard Moreaus and so on ship there from out of town to find easy spots and so that argument is null and void.  It is just as the initial category title states: Ontario Welfare.  The industry in Ontario would be far better off dropping every track except for:

Mohawk
Flamboro
Western Fair

Why?

1. Weed out the .109 trainers/drivers from the sticks that are mostly non-competitive and mostly part-timers.  Bring back a Fair circuit for them in the Summer. More competitive races means a much better product, means making the horses stars again, mean better handle and so many other things, the least of which means fewer rats to enter allowing the right horses/horse people to get in more frequently, allowing them to make a better living.

2. Purses can go up.  Instead of funding 342 dump tracks, the government can support three.  Imagine if the purses at these tracks were like they are at YR, PCD and so on?  Again, attracts better horses/horse people, better product and so on.  Eventually, maybe these three tracks are in a position to be more self-sufficient and non-reliant on a government handout.

3. Full fields.  With so many tracks open, there is a horse shortage and full fields are a nightmare for bettors.  With three tracks, those that survive the purge have to find a spot at one of the tree and enter and the result will be far less six and seven horse garbage fields.

All in all, just these three suggestions alone are guaranteed to spark improvement, but from a business standpoint (handle).  If someone there can take the lead and stop catering to the poor-me horsemen, things might actually improve.  Otherwise: Ontario Welfare.

 
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 23, 2019, 06:50:11 PM
Sunday June 23

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $160,750
Total Handle: $60,002

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $51,400
Total Handle: $33,638

but the kids had fun
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Brown jug on June 23, 2019, 07:41:40 PM
i watched the first race from clinton today
honest, that was the only race and i did not bet it but i was watching how low the superfecta pool was
it was just above $120 with a few minutes to go and it would go up by $ 5 or so each change
ended being a pool of $143 before the refund of the 2 horse who was 5:1
yet a $.20 super payed almost $50
very odd
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on June 23, 2019, 10:00:40 PM
how is this welfare when a parking lot full of 70 thou trucks are parked there these guys pay taxes then how many times did the gov bail  out ford gm  bombbardia  while the average small company gets fuck all

The Canadian govt bailed out GM?
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on June 30, 2019, 01:02:09 PM
Saturday June 29

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $41,000
Total Handle: $25,785

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $41,900
Total Handle: $22,125

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $40,100
Total Handle: $34,553

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 01, 2019, 04:45:55 PM
Sunday June 30

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $48,000
Total Handle: $44,032

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $38,000
Total Handle: $24,871



Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 02, 2019, 05:45:23 AM
Monday July 1

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $113,700
Total Handle: $34,762

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: DeeJennerit on July 02, 2019, 07:33:56 PM
Georgian Downs, another welfare case that has absolutely no business conducting business.  They don't even draw full fields.  Such a joke. Browsing through programs tonight, there are 28 horses in the early pick four!  Imagine?  Aren't they better off closing three or four of these places that could care less about betting product and having an actual business plan and combining all of the entries/horse people at one track that services the lot? Say Flamboro year round or Western Fair?  It is so ridiculous.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 07, 2019, 10:03:33 AM
Saturday July 6

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,200
Total Handle: $23,170

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $42,100
Total Handle: $26,280

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $40,500
Total Handle: $27,753

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: firhill on July 07, 2019, 11:11:20 PM
The good old days........

In all, 106 drivers competed at Orono for the 1969 meet which is indeed a credit for such a small meeting.
In 1969, the year's 18 programs drew a total of 12,342 patrons with a mutuel handle of $377,300 for an average of $21,000. The Orono Driving Club paid out almost $30,000 in purses compared to the $18,980 paid the previous year.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 08, 2019, 05:43:56 AM
Sunday July 7

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $101,700
Total Handle: $40,170

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $55,700
Total Handle: $29,607

...just throwing money away....
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 14, 2019, 11:01:43 AM
Saturday July 13

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $41,000
Total Handle: $28,933

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $49,000
Total Handle: $22,750

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $41,300
Total Handle: $36,045

 11.wj
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: In front on July 14, 2019, 11:46:58 AM
Thanks wiggles, keep up the good work
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 15, 2019, 05:46:10 AM
Sunday July 14

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,500
Total Handle: $31,411

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $40,300
Total Handle: $26,340

 62za.clp
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 21, 2019, 10:55:00 AM
Saturday July 20

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $43,800
Total Handle: $19,809

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $42,400
Total Handle: $17,927

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $116,900
Total Handle: $35,698

11.wj

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 23, 2019, 08:38:16 AM
Sunday July 21

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $58,700
Total Handle: $44,962

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,700
Total Handle: $30,110

 ngc3
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on July 24, 2019, 07:54:58 AM
Saturday July 20

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $43,800
Total Handle: $19,809

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $42,400
Total Handle: $17,927

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $116,900
Total Handle: $35,698

11.wj

pathetic. can't even combine the handle of the three tracks to cover the purses
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 24, 2019, 11:27:10 AM
if hiawatha can't handle 20k a night
they shouldn't be racing for 40k a night
2019 ontario welfare
 11.wj
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wise owl on July 24, 2019, 08:47:51 PM
It is not your money who cares what they bet as long as they can race more racing better for every one.s
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 25, 2019, 05:50:08 AM
taxpayers care
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 28, 2019, 09:43:57 AM
Saturday July 27

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $53,500
Total Handle: $29,711

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $42,200
Total Handle: $21,384

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $40,500
Total Handle: $35,689

 11.mq
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on July 30, 2019, 05:42:07 AM
Sunday July 28

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $41,200
Total Handle: $36,314

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $46,800
Total Handle: $26,725
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 04, 2019, 10:07:20 AM
Saturday August 3

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $101,800
Total Handle: $48,274

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $42,400
Total Handle: $28,761

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $40,300
Total Handle: $34,436

 11.wj



Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 05, 2019, 02:57:32 PM
Sunday August 4

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,000
Total Handle: $40,606

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $38,300
Total Handle: $30,220

Let’s welcome Leamington to the welfare system

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 07, 2019, 05:33:34 AM
Monday August 5

Dresden Raceway
Total Purse:  $39,600
Total Handle: $36,371

Grand River Raceway
Total Purse:  $540,850
Total Handle: $488,696

not in Ontario but worth the mention
Exhibition Park Raceway
Total Purse:  $31,280
Total Handle:  $5,389
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 11, 2019, 11:30:53 AM
Saturday August 10

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $143,700
Total Handle: $30,167

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $39,900
Total Handle: $34,421
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 12, 2019, 08:11:15 PM
Sunday August 11

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $118,050
Total Handle: $47,998

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,100
Total Handle: $43,288

Here’s some Fake News for your Monday Night

http://standardbredcanada.ca/news/8-11-19/industry-day-handle-exceeds-expectations.html



Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 12, 2019, 08:31:59 PM
Wiggles  ....    Come on man, you cherry pick your statistics.
Clinton is a very small Ontario track that would normally have a total purse of 40K.
The 100k plus card that you document had OSS races, which have always been shared with some of the smaller tracks, giving Ontarians all over the province, a chance to see some young SB talent.

No issue you believing the SB industry doesn't deserve government funding, but try to avoid the biased/misleading numbers.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 18, 2019, 09:00:08 AM
Saturday August 17

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $42,700
Total Handle: $27,535

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $42,600
Total Handle: $25,857

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $38,800
Total Handle: $27,520

Another day of “cherry picked” stats

 11.wj


Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 18, 2019, 11:07:31 AM
Wiggles.  ....   I have no issues wth your data presented for Saturday the 17th.  Those are the reality.  I had simple called you out for flagging a 70k gap at Clinton on the OSS purse day was poor, misleading information.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 18, 2019, 08:37:20 PM
Wiggles.  ....   I have no issues wth your data presented for Saturday the 17th.  Those are the reality.  I had simple called you out for flagging a 70k gap at Clinton on the OSS purse day was poor, misleading information.

so a 70k gap is ok because it was an OSS day?
you're dancing around the obvious slim
and we both know that
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Papillon on August 18, 2019, 09:48:09 PM
are those handle numpers USD or Canadian?
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 19, 2019, 11:38:40 AM
Sunday August 18

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $36,400
Total Handle: $25,206

Georgian Downs
Total Purse:  $311,400
Total Handle: $210,244

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $43,000
Total Handle: $36,860

all canadian dollars
all "misleading" information

all  11.wj
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 25, 2019, 11:20:02 AM
Saturday August 24

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $208,400
Total Handle: $33,947

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $48,300
Total Handle: $23,635

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $39,700
Total Handle: $27,864

did the families have fun?
 76za.dcg
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 25, 2019, 03:43:22 PM
Georgian Downs
Total Purse:  $311,400           includes 156k gold and 75k earl rowe   
Total Handle: $210,244

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $208,400          includes 6 OSS for 130k and 56k for Balanced Image
Total Handle: $33,947

No one had any expectation of covering those purses.
You're back to cherry picking, to make it look as ugly as possible.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 25, 2019, 08:32:08 PM
I'm not defending anything.  I'm challenging cherry picked numbers, that present as ugly a picture as possible.  Tracks in Ontario host oss races, that no one in the racing world expects the handle to cover the purse.   I just think it's like fake news to post those, leading people to believe they are the normal purses and handles for those tracks. 

As for Standardbred racing, if it fails, it fails.  Won't affect my future or quality of life one iota.
But calling it welfare is truly ignorant.
Guys that I know in the industry, work a hell of a lot harder than folks I know outside of it.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on August 26, 2019, 12:14:03 AM

Guys that I know in the industry, work a hell of a lot harder than folks I know outside of it.

They can work 90 hours a week, if no one is interested, it is a government handout. Plain and simple. Sure the Conestoga Wagon makers were hard workers but the government didnt bail them out because Ford rolled into town with a superior product.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Field_In_Motion on August 26, 2019, 10:08:11 AM
ITS A DEAD GAME.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 26, 2019, 05:30:16 PM
Sunday August 25

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $39,400
Total Handle: $38,464

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $44,400
Total Handle: $39,218

"No one had any expectation of covering those purses"

who covered these purses?
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 26, 2019, 05:44:23 PM
"Wiggles.  ....   I have no issues wth your data presented for Saturday the 17th.  Those are the reality.  I had simply called you out for flagging a 70k gap at Clinton on the OSS purse day, was poor, misleading information."

Hey Wiggles, like I said before, I have no issue with you providing information from regular track days.
Selling 130k gaps at Hanover on a special OSS day is bull shit.

Showing Clinton missing by 1k is a weekly reality.

Now, how much money Clinton racing adds to the local economy, over and above handle, is certainly worth a conversation.  When you shut the track down, how many people really join the welfare system?  How much revenue does the local feed mill lose?    How much revenue does the local company providing food to the track lose?     


Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on August 27, 2019, 01:22:49 AM


Now, how much money Clinton racing adds to the local economy, over and above handle, is certainly worth a conversation.  When you shut the track down, how many people really join the welfare system?  How much revenue does the local feed mill lose?    How much revenue does the local company providing food to the track lose?     

Bullshit argument that can be used by nearly ANY industry if it were true. There is zero net positive economic revenue that would be lost beyond the amount of subsidies given to the horsemen. If the theory held true that there is such a positive multiplier effect on local economies, then why wouldn't you subsidize purses to a greater extent? After all, it's going to be a boon to the local economy. Why isn't this done? Because it's complete hogwash.


Further, let's suppose this argument is true: that the local auxiliary horse people would be greatly affected by racing shutting down. If that's the case, why aren't they getting slots subsidies? What makes the racing itself more important? Clearly there isn't interest in the sport itself or handle would be much higher. If these people are so vital, why not break them off a piece of the slots subsidies?
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 27, 2019, 03:12:41 PM
Settle down PPG    ....    I asked the question.  I didn't provide the answer.
You seem pretty confident in your understanding of the financial impact, so why don't you share some data that we can all have a look at?

"There is zero net positive economic revenue that would be lost beyond the amount of subsidies given to the horsemen."
Today, track open   $1000 in govt subsidy    $1000 to horsemen in purses      $500  to local businesses

Track closed              $0 subsidy                      $0 to horsemen                       $0 to local businesses

That isn't net zero.    That is net  $500  loss 




Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on August 28, 2019, 07:47:35 AM
Settle down PPG    ....    I asked the question.  I didn't provide the answer.
You seem pretty confident in your understanding of the financial impact, so why don't you share some data that we can all have a look at?

"There is zero net positive economic revenue that would be lost beyond the amount of subsidies given to the horsemen."
Today, track open   $1000 in govt subsidy    $1000 to horsemen in purses      $500  to local businesses

Track closed              $0 subsidy                      $0 to horsemen                       $0 to local businesses

That isn't net zero.    That is net  $500  loss

Do you think that $1000 just materializes out of thin air?  Will the people who are making money servicing horseman just stop working because the government subsidy isn't there?

No. Anyone who has enough unique skills will either move to a place that provides income for their skills, or they will need to find other work that pays them. 

Speaking of providing numbers, can you show that $1000 in purse subsidies directly translates to $500 to local businesses?


There are reams of data dispelling the notion of economic impact for subsidies.

As for specific data regarding economic impact in podunk Canadian towns, there isn't any because no economist in their right mind would ever study such a thing. If you'd like an analog study, I'm sure I can find plenty.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 28, 2019, 12:55:09 PM
Do you think that $1000 just materializes out of thin air?  Will the people who are making money servicing horseman just stop working because the government subsidy isn't there? **** The person who is grooming the track.  The person who is selling tickets.   Yes, if the track closes, they will stop working.  It is a matter of, for how long.    No, the ferrier won't stop working, but you can bet your last dollar, his income is going to be reduced.  ****

No. Anyone who has enough unique skills will either move to a place that provides income for their skills, or they will need to find other work that pays them. **** And how many of the support people have "unique" skills.   We're not talking about the affect on a lawyer or accountant.   We're talking about a real affect on the small shop owner and the minimum wage person working at the track.  Those folks don't necessarily find a new job the next day or month. **** 

Speaking of providing numbers, can you show that $1000 in purse subsidies directly translates to $500 to local businesses?   I was presenting it as an argument.   Not sure if it is 500, 45 or 4500, but for sure it isn't zero as you presented. 

There are reams of data dispelling the notion of economic impact for subsidies.  *** The internet is a big place.   If I look long enough I can find reams of data supporting the reverse.  I'd start with any union involved in the business getting the subsidy.  I'm sure they will have pounds of paper to support why the business needs to stay open.  *****

As for specific data regarding economic impact in podunk Canadian towns, there isn't any because no economist in their right mind would ever study such a thing. If you'd like an analog study, I'm sure I can find plenty.    **** But we are talking about small town tracks.   We aren't talking about GM in Detroit.  How has it worked out in the USA in all those towns where steel mills closed down.  They went from bustling communities with folks making money to boarded up main streets and folks on welfare. ***   
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Calhoun on August 28, 2019, 02:41:04 PM
Do you think that $1000 just materializes out of thin air?  Will the people who are making money servicing horseman just stop working because the government subsidy isn't there? **** The person who is grooming the track.  The person who is selling tickets.   Yes, if the track closes, they will stop working.  It is a matter of, for how long.    No, the ferrier won't stop working, but you can bet your last dollar, his income is going to be reduced.  ****

No. Anyone who has enough unique skills will either move to a place that provides income for their skills, or they will need to find other work that pays them. **** And how many of the support people have "unique" skills.   We're not talking about the affect on a lawyer or accountant.   We're talking about a real affect on the small shop owner and the minimum wage person working at the track.  Those folks don't necessarily find a new job the next day or month. **** 

Speaking of providing numbers, can you show that $1000 in purse subsidies directly translates to $500 to local businesses?   I was presenting it as an argument.   Not sure if it is 500, 45 or 4500, but for sure it isn't zero as you presented. 

There are reams of data dispelling the notion of economic impact for subsidies.  *** The internet is a big place.   If I look long enough I can find reams of data supporting the reverse.  I'd start with any union involved in the business getting the subsidy.  I'm sure they will have pounds of paper to support why the business needs to stay open.  *****

As for specific data regarding economic impact in podunk Canadian towns, there isn't any because no economist in their right mind would ever study such a thing. If you'd like an analog study, I'm sure I can find plenty.    **** But we are talking about small town tracks.   We aren't talking about GM in Detroit.  How has it worked out in the USA in all those towns where steel mills closed down.  They went from bustling communities with folks making money to boarded up main streets and folks on welfare. ***
Slim Shitty,

You should stick to being a racist and a xenophobe.

This Economics stuff is far beyond your abilities.

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 29, 2019, 02:23:20 PM
Belmont  ....   The idea isn't to tell someone they are wrong.   The idea is to disprove something they have said with facts or data.

Let's start slow   .....     "There is zero net positive economic revenue that would be lost beyond the amount of subsidies given to the horsemen."   That was posted as part of this debate.

I believe there is benefit to a community over and above the subsidies.  As an example, on my way to the track I stop and buy a coffee at Tims and gas at the local esso. After the races, my wife and I stopped in for dinner at a local restaurant.   That is economic revenue put into the community, over and above the subsidy going to the horsemen.   
Does your college graduated brain tell you there is zero benefit or some benefit, and use that same college brain to come up with a comment to support your answer??
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 29, 2019, 06:09:56 PM
"just taken your dollars from one town to another."
Not dollar for dollar.
If I'm not going to the track, but staying home :
- I don't have to buy gas
- I don't buy timmies
- I spend $6 on a home cooked meal vs $20 at the restaurant
And for the record, this was never a debate about the province.  This was a conversation about the damage shutting down a track would have on the "local" community.
I asked the question ... "How much money Clinton racing adds to the local economy, over and above handle, is certainly worth a conversation."
And if it's not worth a conversation, then don't respond. 
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Powerful Patricks Ghost on August 29, 2019, 11:03:25 PM
Belmont  ....   The idea isn't to tell someone they are wrong.   The idea is to disprove something they have said with facts or data.

Let's start slow   .....     "There is zero net positive economic revenue that would be lost beyond the amount of subsidies given to the horsemen."   That was posted as part of this debate.

I believe there is benefit to a community over and above the subsidies.  As an example, on my way to the track I stop and buy a coffee at Tims and gas at the local esso. After the races, my wife and I stopped in for dinner at a local restaurant.   That is economic revenue put into the community, over and above the subsidy going to the horsemen.   
Does your college graduated brain tell you there is zero benefit or some benefit, and use that same college brain to come up with a comment to support your answer??

Okay so look at it like this. In scientific experiments, you always have a hypothesis and a null hypothesis.

Let say I believe this is true:

There is not a significant economic benefit to provide purse subsidies to local economics.

The null hypothesis would be: There is a significant economic benefit to provide purse subsidies to local economics.

So, if the null hypothesis is true, that means money put in would be generating a significant economic benefit.

If this is true, why not increase the purse subsidies? Suppose $1000 added to purses results in $1500 in net economic stimulation? It would be stupid to not put as much money into the subsidized purses as possible.

Why isn't it done? Because there isn't much NET economic stimulus. No one is suggesting there is zero economic stimulus. It's just that it's not beyond the amount being subsidized--thus making it a losing proposition for taxpayers.

Look at any publicly funded (subsidized) stadium project. A majority, if not all, of the data shows the local economies will never generate the amount that was given to the stadium projects. Same goes for the Olympics. 

To keep it simple, a famous apocryphal economics lesson goes something like this: A man is at a dinner speaking about a great new jobs program where men will dig out a canal with shovels. The canal will create many jobs to employ many people so it has to be good. An economist at the dinner replies,
"If you want [to create] jobs, then give these workers spoons instead of shovels. 

This quote illustrates that you can argue job creation for a lot of meaningless acts.

Hope this helps!
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 30, 2019, 01:15:09 PM
"Look at any publicly funded (subsidized) stadium project. A majority, if not all, of the data shows the local economies will never generate the amount that was given to the stadium projects."

Here is a comment about the recent deal to build a new arena in Calgary .....
There has been extensive debate about the return on investment for the city, and council heard on Tuesday that over the course of the 35-years of the deal, the city would net -0.6 per cent with direct returns, and 1.4 per cent when indirect benefits are considered.

And none of the construction workers will be using spoons.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on August 30, 2019, 04:58:46 PM
No offense slim shady but give it up. NOBODY cares about 75 percent of US and Candian tracks. Why do you think WHORESMEN deserve free money?

He’s one with a good grasp on the tit
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 30, 2019, 05:46:58 PM
Belmont  ...   Another punk behind a keyboard.   Love to see you show your face at a racetrack near you and call someone a Whoresman!!
However, I agree  there isn't enough interest to keep the industry alive long term.   
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: Calhoun on August 30, 2019, 05:48:12 PM
Belmont  ...   Another punk behind a keyboard.   Love to see you show your face at a racetrack near you and call someone a Whoresman!!
However, I agree  there isn't enough interest to keep the industry alive long term.   
Sit down and be quiet.

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on August 30, 2019, 05:50:02 PM
Wiggles   .....    I've had a job non stop for over 40 years.    I've never been on welfare or drawn unemployment insurance.    I've owned 6 horses and at the very best have broken even.
I think you're accusing the wrong guy of having a grasp on the tit. 
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 01, 2019, 09:59:08 AM
Saturday August 31

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $39,300
Total Handle: $25,061

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $49,000
Total Handle: $24,725

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $40,200
Total Handle: $32,132

Families had fun
Someone bought a bag of feed



Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 02, 2019, 12:01:00 PM
Sunday September 1

Clinton Raceway
Total Purse:  $134,200
Total Handle: $67,417

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $44,600
Total Handle: $40,167

 62za.clp
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 08, 2019, 10:15:17 AM
Saturday September 7

Quote
Flamboro Downs
Total Purse:  $62,700
Total Handle: $100,594

holding their own, chained up doors and no fucking kids allowed

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $40,300
Total Handle: $24,801

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $51,900
Total Handle: $29,594

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $39,100
Total Handle: $28,401

when do they board these shitholes up for the winter?
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 09, 2019, 09:36:19 AM
Sunday September 8

Quote
Flamboro Downs
Total Purse:  $70,700
Total Handle: $159,764

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $45,300
Total Handle: $38,480

 :1
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on September 09, 2019, 12:54:57 PM
Think of the smaller tracks the same way you do minor league teams in hockey and baseball.
None of them make money, so they are all financially supported by the major leagues, who need a steady flow of players that are ready for the bigs.

If you let Hanover and Hiawatha and Kawartha and Flamboro all go under, where are the horses coming from to fill cards at Mohawk??
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 09, 2019, 03:23:01 PM
Think of the smaller tracks the same way you do minor league teams in hockey and baseball.
None of them make money, so they are all financially supported by the major leagues, who need a steady flow of players that are ready for the bigs.

If you let Hanover and Hiawatha and Kawartha and Flamboro all go under, where are the horses coming from to fill cards at Mohawk??

 ngc3
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: helpplease on September 09, 2019, 04:00:55 PM
How much longer can this go on for these whoresmen. NO other business operates this way.

Of course we know you are just kidding right. The tax breaks & bailouts & subsidies to large companies on a yearly basis far exceed anything that horse racing receives.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on September 09, 2019, 06:08:23 PM
What do you find so funny Wiggles?
Why don't you just answer the question  ....   Where would the horses come from if all you had was Mohawk?    Or are you of the opinion that SB racing should just end completely??
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: helpplease on September 09, 2019, 09:34:48 PM
Who cares where they come from when you do the math on these non woodbine mohawk races they need to close  add in the takeout and they are losing 7x what they are getting. How is that in any equation good?

Keeps a lot of hard working uneducated people from drawing poggy? A good investment.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 10, 2019, 07:30:24 PM
Keeps a lot of hard working uneducated people from drawing poggy? A good investment.

where are these people working from november until may?
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on September 10, 2019, 08:42:47 PM
"where are these people working from november until may?"

Some have horses that will run at Mohawk during the winter when the top 20% are given a rest.

Some of them take care of the horses that aren't running in the winter.   They still eat and shit.

Some of them go to Florida with bigger operations to break and train down 2 year olds.

And I'm sure some do collect UI.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: slimshady on September 10, 2019, 08:45:18 PM
"Who cares where they come from"

WEG cares where they come from.   Shortage of quality horses is a big problem for tracks.
No horses, no wagering, no future.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: helpplease on September 10, 2019, 10:54:22 PM
Maybe get educated or realize harness is a dead sport and find another skill and stop sucking off everyone's teats..The world evolves...like it or not. OBVIOUSLY many are extremely hard working ppl that can do other industries well.

And right now some of the world is evolving around the great sport of harness racing whether you like it or not.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: helpplease on September 11, 2019, 12:30:05 PM
explain.. "great" sport of harness racing? really? if it is so great why does nobody bet it? tbreds 10x the amount wagered. The sport of harness racing has died very quickly whether you like it or not. I wish it did not but realistically it did

Great in my eyes. Obviously not yours & I can understand that.
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 15, 2019, 10:16:52 AM
Saturday September 14

Quote
Flamboro Downs
Total Purse:  $64,000
Total Handle: $102,472

Hanover Raceway
Total Purse:  $112,900
Total Handle: $29,591

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $53,300
Total Handle: $27,688

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $39,550
Total Handle: $29,153

 11.wj
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 16, 2019, 05:34:31 AM
Sunday September 15

Flamboro Downs
Total Purse:  $70,700
Total Handle: $206,654

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $44,300
Total Handle: $42,219

Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 22, 2019, 09:52:08 AM
Saturday September 21

Hiawatha Horse Park
Total Purse:  $52,800
Total Handle: $28,686

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $39,300
Total Handle: $26,234

Quote
Flamboro Downs
Total Purse:  $71,900
Total Handle: $126,616

 :1
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 29, 2019, 07:46:37 AM
Saturday September 28

Kawartha Downs
Total Purse:  $39,600
Total Handle: $38,770

No Kids Allowed Downs
Total Purse:  $61,800
Total Handle: $120,908

and check out this shit hole
Exhibition Park Raceway
Total Purse:  $7,150
Total Handle:  $1,783

 11.wj
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on September 30, 2019, 05:17:10 PM
http://standardbredcanada.ca/news/9-30-19/optimism-kawarthas-future.html

Quote
"I see the potential for growth in the summer months, possibly going to two races (per week)," Valente continued. "The other strategy is to carry on the calendar further into the fall."

WHY?????
your handle doesn't meet your purse payout every race night of 2019!
yet you want to race twice a week next year?
who runs this asylum?
 ngc3
Title: Re: 2019 Ontario Welfare
Post by: wiggles44 on October 01, 2019, 05:40:33 AM
Sunday September 29

Leamington Raceway
Total Purse:  $44,200
Total Handle: $29,356

 11.mq
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