HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Pacer 2 on October 05, 2025, 02:32:49 PM
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Despite some negative Nancy's this sport is thriving! Crowds at the Fryberg Fair and the Little Brown Jug were huge as well and prices for yearlings and purse earnings are very high! tmbz1 tmbz1
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I say it is on the downside. The fair circut is a nice outlet but it does not produce any interest outside of where the event is taking place. I don't think people have on the bucket list about going to see fair racing. If you ask people in the street do they know what the Little Brown Jug or Hambo is compared to the Kentucky Derby how many people will know that they are Harness events. I have been a Harness racing fan my whole life but I don't have the interest in the game like I used to. The reason being I get tired of hearing about all the negative Publicity. Here are the stats so far this year. It is trending down. ECONOMIC INDICATORS ON U.S. RACES
October 4, 2025: $3,604,186
2025 2024 % Change
Total Wagered $1,060,838,891 $1,158,659,977 -8.44%
Per Race avg. $40,927 $43,446 -5.80%
Per Betting Interest $5,309 $5,589 -5.01%
Purses $382,327,833 $378,228,570 +1.08%
Race Days 2458 2494 -1.44%
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You seem to be referring to betting. I'm referring to horse prices and purses for horsemen and owners. Its exploding.
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Despite some negative Nancy's this sport is thriving! Crowds at the Fryberg Fair and the Little Brown Jug were huge as well and prices for yearlings and purse earnings are very high! tmbz1 tmbz1
What are you smoking. The Jug crown was down again
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You seem to be referring to betting. I'm referring to horse prices and purses for horsemen and owners. Its exploding.
Do you think racing exists to provide horsemen with a living?
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You seem to be referring to betting. I'm referring to horse prices and purses for horsemen and owners. Its exploding.
All handouts. Remove the handouts and the sport is already dead.
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What are you smoking. The Jug crown was down again
The attendance was reported as much higher.....
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All handouts. Remove the handouts and the sport is already dead.
Who cares where the money comes from as long as the horsemen and owners get it??
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I'm guessing you never went to the Jug when there were 40,000 plus fans....maybe 10,000 this year ? Harness Racing is only one vote away from losing the blood money in most states.
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I'm guessing you never went to the Jug when there were 40,000 plus fans....maybe 10,000 this year ? Harness Racing is only one vote away from losing the blood money in most states.
To be fair when the jug had 40K plus in attendance there was no simulcasting.
To watch it you had to be there.
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Who cares where the money comes from as long as the horsemen and owners get it??
Do you want to bet you livelihood on the whim of government? If the industry cannot support itself, eventually it will cease to exist.
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To be fair when the jug had 40K plus in attendance there was no simulcasting.
To watch it you had to be there.
There were 42, 000 people there last year and probably close to the same this year. Before covid it was over 50,000.
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No way in Hell was there 40,000 people at the Jug this year or last year...lol
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. Back in the early 70s when OTB was introduced in NY Mr Haughton went to Albany and had a chance to speak and told them if people didn't have to go to the track to bet there would be a day when there would be no fans at the track. He seems to have been right. On track betting pays back over 10% to the track while online and simulcast pays about 2%.
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Fryeburg is packed daily and you can't get a seat in the grandstand unless you get there an hour before first post.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. Back in the early 70s when OTB was introduced in NY Mr Haughton went to Albany and had a chance to speak and told them if people didn't have to go to the track to bet there would be a day when there would be no fans at the track. He seems to have been right. On track betting pays back over 10% to the track while online and simulcast pays about 2%.
Howard Samuels the first czar of OTB set it up to empty tracks and provide himself a hefty salary and closing of Roosevelt by the ways Haughton spoke of.
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Who cares where the money comes from as long as the horsemen and owners get it??
Huh? Really. Check out the handle at the red mile in Lexington yesterday vs. Keeneland in Lexington. It's pitiful. NOBODY cares
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Howard Samuels the first czar of OTB set it up to empty tracks and provide himself a hefty salary and closing of Roosevelt by the ways Haughton spoke of.
My Mom (Rest In Peace) was one of the first hired for OTB. Sadly, my Dad (Rest In Peace) wouldn't allow her to take the train from Brooklyn to the Wall Street location. So she turned the job down. In the end, I think OTB hurt on track attendance big time.
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My Mom (Rest In Peace) was one of the first hired for OTB. Sadly, my Dad (Rest In Peace) wouldn't allow her to take the train from Brooklyn to the Wall Street location. So she turned the job down. In the end, I think OTB hurt on track attendance big time.
I know someone who was in the same position as your mom but took the position, now she has a nice 30-year pension with NYC OTB and went on to work for one of Gural's off track betting sites.
BTW - she also lived in Brooklyn and still does, she still works for Gural but always complains about those tolls, Bayonne bridge, Verrazano etc.
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To further the point with the ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS "harness racing is thriving" post.
Red mile- Lexington Race 1. $33,000 pool $80,000 purse.
Keeneland Lexington Race 1. $640,000 pool. $50,000 purse.
48x the differential vs purse. Thriving. Not!
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Who cares where the money comes from as long as the horsemen and owners get it??
we all knew you weren't very smart.
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we all knew you weren't very smart.
I'm fairly certain when the owners, trainers, drivers, grooms, vets, feed and hay suppliers get their checks they arent overly concerned where they come from! ngc3 ngc3
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Your buddy changed names again as is now NOTHING BUT TRUTHS.
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Your buddy changed names again as is now NOTHING BUT TRUTHS.
Childish, yes? ngc3
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we all knew you weren't very smart.
Why dont you use your powerful brain and enlighten us, yes?
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horsemen should not be getting 1 penny from casinos
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horsemen should not be getting 1 penny from casinos
you're entitled to your opinion I guess
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I'm fairly certain when the owners, trainers, drivers, grooms, vets, feed and hay suppliers get their checks they arent overly concerned where they come from! ngc3 ngc3
Al CAPONE had people working for him that thought the same way and cartels in SOUTH AMERICA have many workers that feel the same way, Pacer do you buy things from people that steal the products you are buying as why would you care as long as it helps you
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Al CAPONE had people working for him that thought the same way and cartels in SOUTH AMERICA have many workers that feel the same way, Pacer do you buy things from people that steal the products you are buying as why would you care as long as it helps you
Stealing is illegal no comparison. Are Government grants, and programs stealing also?
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I'm fairly certain when the owners, trainers, drivers, grooms, vets, feed and hay suppliers get their checks they arent overly concerned where they come from! ngc3 ngc3
Im fairly certain that the people at Pompano were concerned when they were no longer receiving any checks
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Im fairly certain that the people at Pompano were concerned when they were no longer receiving any checks
That was unfortunate but they had notice and many found greener pastures in a new Kentucky track as well as NY and Pennsylvania.
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They made a big deal on here when Freehold closed but for the majority of horsemen it wasn't a bad thing because they were losing money year after year. Their options were to upgrade their stables or find a real job you make money at.
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I'm fairly certain when the owners, trainers, drivers, grooms, vets, feed and hay suppliers get their checks they arent overly concerned where they come from! ngc3 ngc3
An industry with few customers for its product is not "thriving" it is failing. Living off government handouts in not a thriving industry.
We need to hold a poll of slots players:
"A portion of every dollar played on slots machines goes to subsidize the horse racing industry. How do you want you money allocated"?
1) Increase the payouts of the slots machines
2) Use those funds to support schools
3) Use those funds for infrastructure like roods and bridges
4) Lower taxes
5) Give it to the horsemen
Can you predict the outcome? I am waiting for your answer.
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An industry with few customers for its product is not "thriving" it is failing. Living off government handouts in not a thriving industry.
We need to hold a poll of slots players:
"A portion of every dollar played on slots machines goes to subsidize the horse racing industry. How do you want you money allocated"?
1) Increase the payouts of the slots machines
2) Use those funds to support schools
3) Use those funds for infrastructure like roods and bridges
4) Lower taxes
5) Give it to the horsemen
Can you predict the outcome? I am waiting for your answer.
When owners are paying record prices for horses and earning record amounts along with drivers and trainers it sure looks like its thriving to me! ngc3 ngc3
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When owners are paying record prices for horses and earning record amounts along with drivers and trainers it sure looks like its thriving to me! ngc3 ngc3
Are you really that dense? All that money is GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS!
An industry with few customers for its product is not "thriving" it is failing. Living off government handouts in not a thriving industry.
We need to hold a poll of slots players:
"A portion of every dollar played on slots machines goes to subsidize the horse racing industry. How do you want you money allocated"?
1) Increase the payouts of the slots machines
2) Use those funds to support schools
3) Use those funds for infrastructure like roods and bridges
4) Lower taxes
5) Give it to the horsemen
Can you predict the outcome? I am waiting for your answer.
I see you did not answer the question!
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Fryeburg is packed daily and you can't get a seat in the grandstand unless you get there an hour before first post.
It's funny, I was just randomly looking at the charts from Fryeburg over the past week and they actually handled decent money. Is that all on track or do they send their signal anywhere?
Seems like it would be fun to go there.
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An industry with few customers for its product is not "thriving" it is failing. Living off government handouts in not a thriving industry.
We need to hold a poll of slots players:
"A portion of every dollar played on slots machines goes to subsidize the horse racing industry. How do you want you money allocated"?
1) Increase the payouts of the slots machines
2) Use those funds to support schools
3) Use those funds for infrastructure like roods and bridges
4) Lower taxes
5) Give it to the horsemen
Can you predict the outcome? I am waiting for your answer.
1-2-3-4 are all fair answers. I remember betting the days when i would bet 400 to win on a horse and not affect the pools at all, I remember when the racetrack had races where if you figured out the puzzle you could buy a new car but today its figure out the puzzle and you can buy a coffee. If you go to any sports event you will have people painting their faces with the teams colors and cheering from start to finish and it feels like a war thats fun to watch and today you have a crowd of super seniors that never cheer and are waiting to die.
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or you can ask the slots players the following
if not for a deal with horseman allowing the casino to be built on their land and using their license their would be no slots for you to play in most states
that small amount that goes to the horse racing industry supports thousands of jobs and has a major trickle down effect on economies where race tracks are located
the answer is 5
number 2,3,4 are to be supported by taxes collected from citizens and businesses in the area
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or you can ask the slots players the following
if not for a deal with horseman allowing the casino to be built on their land and using their license their would be no slots for you to play in most states
that small amount that goes to the horse racing industry supports thousands of jobs and has a major trickle down effect on economies where race tracks are located
the answer is 5
number 2,3,4 are to be supported by taxes collected from citizens and businesses in the area
You may be right as grooms are paying off homes and honest vets are not been used with most honest trainers getting destroyed and owners are leaving at a alarming rate and if you are a fan from what you are watching you have no life, People making money are drivers who could care less if anyone was watching and crooked vets plus suits that do not deserve a job so it could only be 5, Watching racing is like watching the TORONTO MAPLE LEAfs when Harold Ballard owned them and yes he created many jobs without giving the fans a chance ever doing well.
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When owners are paying record prices for horses and earning record amounts along with drivers and trainers it sure looks like its thriving to me! ngc3 ngc3
It's only good for a very small portion of the population. Roads and bridges,schools will help way more people. The end will come.
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An industry with few customers for its product is not "thriving" it is failing. Living off government handouts in not a thriving industry.
We need to hold a poll of slots players:
"A portion of every dollar played on slots machines goes to subsidize the horse racing industry. How do you want you money allocated"?
1) Increase the payouts of the slots machines
2) Use those funds to support schools
3) Use those funds for infrastructure like roods and bridges
4) Lower taxes
5) Give it to the horsemen
Can you predict the outcome? I am waiting for your answer.
1. Ain’t never going to happen.
2/3/4. Approximately 90% of the tax on casino revenue are supposed to be paying for.
5. The vast majority of this small portion that goes to horseman circulates through local economy
6. The one yall always forget. Give more money to casino companies (most of which are owned by overseas interests
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You don't think 234 produce jobs? I bet they produce way more jobs than harness racing. And don't worry about the local feed man. Everyone goes to tractor supply now. Tractor supply will be ok.
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The people that help this game the most are racetrack investigators and racetrack judges plus the racing commissions that keep the game pure and make sure every race is run like a sporting contest should be, The sad truth is that fans and betting people would rather have a drug problem in the game far more than the friendly drivers shit we see every race as that creates no prices and boring racing, You take a great football team like ALABAMA a few years back and in games that had 40 point spreads nobody could watch unless you had a bet on the game as nobody cares about a great team but they do care about a great game.
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1-2-3-4 are all fair answers. I remember betting the days when i would bet 400 to win on a horse and not affect the pools at all, I remember when the racetrack had races where if you figured out the puzzle you could buy a new car but today its figure out the puzzle and you can buy a coffee. If you go to any sports event you will have people painting their faces with the teams colors and cheering from start to finish and it feels like a war thats fun to watch and today you have a crowd of super seniors that never cheer and are waiting to die.
The money is NOT coming from the people going to the races, it is coming from the people PLAYING SLOTS. You will get an overwhelming majority saying increase the payouts of the SLOTS. You might get a few saying lower taxes. Give it to the horsemen will get the least votes.
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or you can ask the slots players the following
if not for a deal with horseman allowing the casino to be built on their land and using their license their would be no slots for you to play in most states
that small amount that goes to the horse racing industry supports thousands of jobs and has a major trickle down effect on economies where race tracks are located
the answer is 5
number 2,3,4 are to be supported by taxes collected from citizens and businesses in the area
The casinos exist because PEOPLE WANT THEM. One way or another, thewy were going to happen. The casino interest used racing and racing fell for it. The bottom line is racing is getting money from the slot players. That is not where they would choose for the money to go and neither would the general public. If racing does not realize this, they will wake up with no handouts AND no customers.
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1. Ain’t never going to happen.
2/3/4. Approximately 90% of the tax on casino revenue are supposed to be paying for.
5. The vast majority of this small portion that goes to horseman circulates through local economy
6. The one yall always forget. Give more money to casino companies (most of which are owned by overseas interests
It is BILLIONS in PA alone. You are right, the casinos would want to keep it. The bottom line is none of the people involved would vote to give it to the horsemen.
The money circulates in the economy no matter were it goes. Companies which build roads hire people and buy materials. The difference is VOTER uses those roads but could care less about racing.
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You don't think 234 produce jobs? I bet they produce way more jobs than harness racing. And don't worry about the local feed man. Everyone goes to tractor supply now. Tractor supply will be ok.
You get it. Most horsemen don't.
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It's called harness racing welfare
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It's called harness racing welfare
Exactly! Look, I love harness racing...but I have never been able to figure out why they think they are entitled to it forever? The money could definitely be used better somewhere else.
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I am on a local fairboard in Ohio and cannot seem to get people to understand that it is all a handout. If the purse is higher than the handle, the money is coming from somewhere. We paid out of over 100k in purses but only had $1700 in bets at the fair last year. Not to mention if you look at the 2024 ORC report we were just about the handle in 1952 in 2024. I would bet that in 2025 it is going to be down another 5 to 10 million from last year. Groups like the OHHA have some claim that the economic impact is so high but I think they fail to see how many of these horses raced in Ohio are owned by someone out of state.
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With an economic impact for Ohio worth nearly $1.5 billion, the equine industry is a big money maker for the state. Ohio has a horse population of about 306,000, making it the 6th most populous state in the country when it comes to horses. It also has the 6th most horses per square mile of land in the country with that number being over seven. That stat continues to grow at a galloping rate
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Man you must work for the OHHA. So what if I told you the top 1000 earning horses in ohio for half the year were either owned 100% by someone out of state or partially. How does that change that magical bs information. I would say more non race horses live in the state compared to race horses so how much of an impact do race horses have? You are fine with welfare for purses. Then people want section 8 stall rental too. The only people that have an interest in harness racing either own them or train them. The handle speaks for that. Let's not add inflation in from the 1952 number.
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some of you guys amaze me
at the end of the day who the fuck cares
harness racing isn't hurting anyone, 90% of the people working in it would be on unemployment if not for harness racing
in the big scheme of things any money allocated to harness racing is a pimple on an elephants ass compared to the billions the usa wastes in so many areas ( which i wont go into )
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some of you guys amaze me
at the end of the day who the fuck cares
harness racing isn't hurting anyone, 90% of the people working in it would be on unemployment if not for harness racing
in the big scheme of things any money allocated to harness racing is a pimple on an elephants ass compared to the billions the usa wastes in so many areas ( which i wont go into )
tmbz1 tmbz1 tmbz1
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With an economic impact for Ohio worth nearly $1.5 billion, the equine industry is a big money maker for the state. Ohio has a horse population of about 306,000, making it the 6th most populous state in the country when it comes to horses. It also has the 6th most horses per square mile of land in the country with that number being over seven. That stat continues to grow at a galloping rate
You need to go get a basic economics book. Spend that money on anything else and you get as much or more economic benefit. Money is not created by giving it to horsemen. Spend it on roads and bridges you get just as much or more economic activity. The difference is the general public want the infrastructure while they could care less about racing.
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some of you guys amaze me
at the end of the day who the fuck cares
harness racing isn't hurting anyone, 90% of the people working in it would be on unemployment if not for harness racing
in the big scheme of things any money allocated to harness racing is a pimple on an elephants ass compared to the billions the usa wastes in so many areas ( which i wont go into )
It is hurting people because those dollars could be going something people actually want. Put it to a referendum and let the tax payer decide. What do you thing the outcome of that vote would be?
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With an economic impact for Ohio worth nearly $1.5 billion, the equine industry is a big money maker for the state. Ohio has a horse population of about 306,000, making it the 6th most populous state in the country when it comes to horses. It also has the 6th most horses per square mile of land in the country with that number being over seven. That stat continues to grow at a galloping rate
The Independent Fiscal Office’s 2017 report estimated that the $225 million given to the industry in 2016 led to $397 million in economic output, or roughly $1.77 for every $1 in subsidies.
However, the money could have had a bigger economic return if it had been spent differently. The IFO noted that every dollar for elementary and secondary education would have brought a $2.08 return. If the state had instead spent the money on highway and street infrastructure upgrades, it would have returned $2.15 for every dollar. For water and sewer infrastructure improvement, $1.83 for every dollar.
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kenny, you are going around in circles
i'm getting dizzy
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some of you guys amaze me
at the end of the day who the fuck cares
harness racing isn't hurting anyone, 90% of the people working in it would be on unemployment if not for harness racing
in the big scheme of things any money allocated to harness racing is a pimple on an elephants ass compared to the billions the usa wastes in so many areas ( which i wont go into )
If I get paid by my job every week. And it isn't enough to pay my bills. Can I get a handout? No my house would be foreclosed. My car would get repoed. You have to be self sustaining at some point. Casinos are not going to fund you forever. It's coming.
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Think about these drivers making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Some can't even read. Grooms can get Jon's at other farms. So the fallout wouldn't be as bad as every horseman thinks.
At some point the the casinos have to ask. Is the juice worth the squeeze. Most of the population probably doesn't think it is. Put it up for a vote. Maybe we would have less flat tires. Or less kids in classrooms. Just saying there are way more productive options. Harness racing had their shot. They dropped the ball. Shame on them. It's their own fault. Should of had qualified leaders leading the industry. Not hiring every trainers wife or daughter.
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Think about these drivers making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Some can't even read. Grooms can get Jon's at other farms. So the fallout wouldn't be as bad as every horseman thinks.
At some point the the casinos have to ask. Is the juice worth the squeeze. Most of the population probably doesn't think it is. Put it up for a vote. Maybe we would have less flat tires. Or less kids in classrooms. Just saying there are way more productive options. Harness racing had their shot. They dropped the ball. Shame on them. It's their own fault. Should of had qualified leaders leading the industry. Not hiring every trainers wife or daughter.
MGM has made it clear over the years. They have no interest in being in the racing industry whatsoever. They will whatever it takes to decouple NFLD and Yonkers racing from their casinos and end racing. If they are not successful by some poing in the futire they will sell and get out.
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Rolling full steam ahead with what will be an ALL TIME record season at Hoosier Park! Momentum continues with a 64% increase in handle over the same week last year!..........Gabe Prewitt
Thats Thriving
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some of you guys amaze me
at the end of the day who the fuck cares
harness racing isn't hurting anyone, 90% of the people working in it would be on unemployment if not for harness racing
in the big scheme of things any money allocated to harness racing is a pimple on an elephants ass compared to the billions the usa wastes in so many areas ( which i wont go into )
✅✅
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It is hurting people because those dollars could be going something people actually want. Put it to a referendum and let the tax payer decide. What do you thing the outcome of that vote would be?
lol 😂 you’re a broken record, don’t worry the roads and infrastructure will get the money hurt their projects they always do regardless,🙄
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Think about these drivers making hundreds of thousands of dollars. Some can't even read. Grooms can get Jon's at other farms. So the fallout wouldn't be as bad as every horseman thinks.
At some point the the casinos have to ask. Is the juice worth the squeeze. Most of the population probably doesn't think it is. Put it up for a vote. Maybe we would have less flat tires. Or less kids in classrooms. Just saying there are way more productive options. Harness racing had their shot. They dropped the ball. Shame on them. It's their own fault. Should of had qualified leaders leading the industry. Not hiring every trainers wife or daughter.
Funny you dont complain about pro athletes making $100 MILLION for playing a game for 6 months a year! Some of them cant read either!
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Rolling full steam ahead with what will be an ALL TIME record season at Hoosier Park! Momentum continues with a 64% increase in handle over the same week last year!..........Gabe Prewitt
Thats Thriving
ECONOMIC INDICATORS ON U.S. RACES
October 7, 2025: $2,683,276
2025 2024 % Change
Total Wagered $1,068,250,952 $1,167,014,669 -8.46%
Per Race avg. $40,778 $43,261 -5.74%
Per Betting Interest $5,291 $5,569 -4.99%
Purses $388,327,978 $384,767,434 +0.93%
Race Days 2481 2521 -1.59%
Lots of negative numbers!
In PA close to 90% of the purses are funded by government handouts. Remove the handouts and purses are around 15% of what they are now. A $10,000 purse falls to $1,500.
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MGM has made it clear over the years. They have no interest in being in the racing industry whatsoever. They will whatever it takes to decouple NFLD and Yonkers racing from their casinos and end racing. If they are not successful by some poing in the futire they will sell and get out.
When the casino was built at Northfield is is a few feet from the grandstand yet the did not connect the two buildings. When the Red Mile built the casino, they paved the parking lot for the casino customers and spent nothing on the grandstand.
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lol 😂 you’re a broken record, don’t worry the roads and infrastructure will get the money hurt their projects they always do regardless,🙄
But they don't. I drove many miles in states with racing handouts. The infrastructure is falling apart. It isn't me you have to worry about, it is the voters who COULD CARE LESS ABOUT RACING.
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ECONOMIC INDICATORS ON U.S. RACES
October 7, 2025: $2,683,276
2025 2024 % Change
Total Wagered $1,068,250,952 $1,167,014,669 -8.46%
Per Race avg. $40,778 $43,261 -5.74%
Per Betting Interest $5,291 $5,569 -4.99%
Purses $388,327,978 $384,767,434 +0.93%
Race Days 2481 2521 -1.59%
Lots of negative numbers!
In PA close to 90% of the purses are funded by government handouts. Remove the handouts and purses are around 15% of what they are now. A $10,000 purse falls to $1,500.
an ALL TIME record season at Hoosier
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Funny you dont complain about pro athletes making $100 MILLION for playing a game for 6 months a year! Some of them cant read either!
That is supported by the FANS/CUSTOMERS not government handouts.
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Funny you dont complain about pro athletes making $100 MILLION for playing a game for 6 months a year! Some of them cant read either!
You really are a special kind of stupid. ngc3
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(https://iili.io/KjOTHYB.md.jpg) (https://freeimage.host/i/KjOTHYB)
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The question should be how long will the government keep giving money to a business that continues to lose money ?
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The question should be how long will the government keep giving money to a business that continues to lose money ?
I guess if that want to operate like the post office they will continue. They want to make it sound like this is an investment and it does so much good for farmers. In Ohio we do not produce enough hay for horses and lots of it is trucked in. I am guessing most of the grain that is fed is oat based. We do not grow many oats.
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Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds had a year that had baseball buzzing and then we found out that this miracle year was tainted with steroids and today no one talks about the amazing battle because it was not real. On a GRAND CIRCUIT day of racing when BURKE wins 5 and ALEXANDER wins 1 and Pelling wins 3 with 6 track records and 6 small prices who with a brain walks away and feels proud of the game. Around 5 years ago i spoke to a ex trainer from MONTREAL and he told me that he stood outside the casino everyday protesting the closure of Blue Bonnets freezing his nuts off and he thought life was over as that is all he knew and he also told me he owed everyone money and was always broke and 5 years later he realized that the closing was a miracle for him as he could now go on a vacation and enjoy life and no one he knew from the protest lines had really suffered, Bottom line is owners getting destroyed big time and i was told many years earlier that the pictures were worth the loss of money but that can not be true as very very few take a picture these days. Gamblers Getting destroyed as who can beat a high vig with 1-2 shots winning at a rate like never before and last who enjoys the show of soft racing that happens 10 times a day.
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A business? Meaning a specific business? Or, an industry?
Good question. Perhaps. So, how long will the government "keep giving money to".....
Agriculture companies
Energy companies
Housing/Development companies
Tech companies
Aviation/Airline companies
Railroad companies
Defense contractor companies
Various manufacturing companies
Point being, one, it's not such a simple, linear discussion. Two, "subsidies" is a very generic term. There are many different contexts and meaning.
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Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds had a year that had baseball buzzing and then we found out that this miracle year was tainted with steroids and today no one talks about the amazing battle because it was not real. On a GRAND CIRCUIT day of racing when BURKE wins 5 and ALEXANDER wins 1 and Pelling wins 3 with 6 track records and 6 small prices who with a brain walks away and feels proud of the game. Around 5 years ago i spoke to a ex trainer from MONTREAL and he told me that he stood outside the casino everyday protesting the closure of Blue Bonnets freezing his nuts off and he thought life was over as that is all he knew and he also told me he owed everyone money and was always broke and 5 years later he realized that the closing was a miracle for him as he could now go on a vacation and enjoy life and no one he knew from the protest lines had really suffered, Bottom line is owners getting destroyed big time and i was told many years earlier that the pictures were worth the loss of money but that can not be true as very very few take a picture these days. Gamblers Getting destroyed as who can beat a high vig with 1-2 shots winning at a rate like never before and last who enjoys the show of soft racing that happens 10 times a day.
I think just Pacer0 likes soft racing. maybe 1 or 2 others and of course the CAW's love it
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I love it when the same people justify wrongs by comparing them to other wrongs instead of saying its wrong, Is something wrong with a system when LOU PENA tested clean 99 percent of the time during a 2 year period that he won everything or Rene Allard testing clean 99 percent or Lance Armstrong testing clean 99 percent of the time and i can go on and on, How insulting is it to have KENTUCKY tracks that do no handle have the biggest purses in NORTH AMERICA with no interest in the product but all the chemist get all the money. Kenny has it all dead on when talking about the game, If you speak to most DRUG DEALERS they will tell you that the guy who overdosed would have bought drugs from someone else and it would be the same result a death it reminds me how many horseman think as they and judges and management think it ok for a very lame 10 claimer to go 1.50 mile and then pull a HOUDINI disappearing trick to never appear again.
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an ALL TIME record season at Hoosier
So Hoosier is the only track? You make some of the dumbest arguments I have ever seen.
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The question should be how long will the government keep giving money to a business that continues to lose money ?
AND has very little support from the voters who want infrastructure repaired and schools improved. Put it to a referendum in each state. Ask the slots players what should be done with the money.
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Only one vote away from losing government funding in most States I believe
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A business? Meaning a specific business? Or, an industry?
Good question. Perhaps. So, how long will the government "keep giving money to".....
Agriculture companies
Energy companies
Housing/Development companies
Tech companies
Aviation/Airline companies
Railroad companies
Defense contractor companies
Various manufacturing companies
Point being, one, it's not such a simple, linear discussion. Two, "subsidies" is a very generic term. There are many different contexts and meaning.
It is easy, just put it to a referendum and let the voters decide.
Harness racing in PA gets more money than most of the items you listed put together. Most of the items you listed are things THE PEOPLE WANT.
Why can't racing support itself like other sports and entertainment?
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Only one vote away from losing government funding in most States I believe
The former governor in PA was trying. It is only a matter of time when the current governor needs the money to buy votes and he would sign.
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Hoosier and the RED MILE were the best racetracks for years as you could win from last in most races and today Hoosier is a shit hole as the new people running it have destroyed it with making it a speed highway, The Meadowlands in its prime was the ultimate fair track where it was start to finish excitement and the answer is simple to fixing the sport as you need to do everything you can to make movement on a track like banking the track or staggering the gate and change the surface back to the way it was when the big M was the king of the sport.
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It is easy, just put it to a referendum and let the voters decide.
Harness racing in PA gets more money than most of the items you listed put together. Most of the items you listed are things THE PEOPLE WANT.
Why can't racing support itself like other sports and entertainment?
I guess you never heard of Government grants which subsidize and support thousands of useless people. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Funny you dont complain about pro athletes making $100 MILLION for playing a game for 6 months a year! Some of them cant read either!
difference is these teams and owners are self sustaining. they don't rely on another industry to fund them. do they?
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Despite some negative Nancy's this sport is thriving! Crowds at the Fryberg Fair and the Little Brown Jug were huge as well and prices for yearlings and purse earnings are very high! Drivers and trainers and horses are clearly making more than ever! ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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"All time record at Hoosier". Again with the times and records. Who the FUCK cares if it is an all time record. Is it profitable without WELFARE? How stupid are some of you people?
Learn ROI.....not that difficult. purse vs handles less takeout. Let me know a decoupled track that would be profitable without welfare based on that.
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Despite some negative Nancy's this sport is thriving! Crowds at the Fryberg Fair and the Little Brown Jug were huge as well and prices for yearlings and purse earnings are very high! Drivers and trainers and horses are clearly making more than ever! ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
you are delusional. its such a small percentage of people making it big and crushing and making money hand over fist. does it happen? sure, there are some. it's not the norm. when you have very few trainers and drivers taking the most out of the purses you have other who can't survive.
so let the cheating pigs race against each other. see how long it lasts. cause that's where its heading.
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It is easy, just put it to a referendum and let the voters decide.
Harness racing in PA gets more money than most of the items you listed put together. Most of the items you listed are things THE PEOPLE WANT.
Why can't racing support itself like other sports and entertainment?
That's funny. Couldn't be further from the truth, but funny. Boeing, Amazon, and Intel.....just those three received over $40 billion in government subsidies from 2020 to 2024. Walt Disney got almost $3 billion. Berkshire Hathaway almost $2 billion. I guess we should expect the purses to be much higher in PA.
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That's funny. Couldn't be further from the truth, but funny. Boeing, Amazon, and Intel.....just those three received over $40 billion in government subsidies from 2020 to 2024. Walt Disney got almost $3 billion. Berkshire Hathaway almost $2 billion. I guess we should expect the purses to be much higher in PA.
Yes. But the peanut gallery has nothing to say about that! ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Being proud that the industry is “thriving” on subsidies is like bragging about living off an EBT card and Section 8 housing. If it were truly thriving, wouldn’t the handle be higher than the purse?
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I think it's also stupidity and greed. The people who run racetracks know little to nothing about the racing business. Ownership/management turned a deaf ear and a blind eye for far too long, and now they scream they are on life support and need help. Whatever happened to suffering the consequences of your own actions? No, I am not saying the sport and the industry should die off. That will never happen. But, I do think there needs to be more accountability and responsibility. Give the tracks alternative revenue sources, like a casino, wean them off the BS subsidies, and let them survive on operational payments, business revenue, etc. If they can, they can. If they can't, so be it. I am sure WEG, Meadowlands, and a few others would have no problem.
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Why would smart people be paying record prices for standardbreds that are earning record amounts if the sport wasnt thriving? Drivers and trainers are earning record amounts also. Its huge!
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so let the cheating pigs race against each other. see how long it lasts. cause that's where its heading.
There is cheating in every sport, politics, business. Its part of life. And I've been told harness racing is disappearing for 35 years! TOO FUNNY!
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Why would smart people be paying record prices for standardbreds that are earning record amounts if the sport wasnt thriving? Drivers and trainers are earning record amounts also. Its huge!
Spending alot of money doesn't make you smart, it means you have alot of money. The majority of those high ticket items don't work out but most are still multi-millionaires.
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There are parts of the industry that are doing well, very well actually. A few of the commercial breeders are seeing record revenue. Some of the new consigners who sold in Lexington did very well. OBBBA has a very positive impact on buyers. Big time. I don't count other people's money, but in their respective businesses, I know a few who are doing extremely well, so from a tax perspective, putting money into the sport/business they enjoy is even more favorable now.
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Years ago PINNACLE SPORTS became the biggest bookmaking outfit in north America and it was run by a group of gamblers from NEW YORK and they changed things for the better when it came to the gambler by making 8 cent line and 5 cent on certain bets and every smart gambler went to PINNACLE and when it came to horse racing they had a four class system with with A-B-C-D and the D meant you could only win 500 a race but the A was 25000 and the BIGM was the only A harness track had an A, Mohawk was a B and after a short while Mohawk became a D while Flamboro was a C and i was told that they got killed with MOHAWK and i went to a higher up at WEG and told them about this and let them know that working with Pinnacle could clean up racing and the official told me that last week a gambler got back 65000 for a 12 dollar bet at a TB track in a pentafecta and i asked him what did that have to do with my story and he said Canadians are much smarter than Americans and that is the reason Pinnacle made Mohawk a D, This guy was one of the top guys at WEG, Management allowed the bad racing happen by hiring dope after dope and all you have to do is watch the show on tv every night and i can not think off a bigger shit show around than watching a harness show with morons giving you no insight on the game,
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Pacer2 ... you must've never been to the LBJ when there were 40,000 plus watching the race maybe 10,000 -15,000 this year ? Were you ever at the Mlands when they bet 4 plus million live handle on a Friday or Saturday night ? Were you ever at the International Trot at Roosevelt when they bet over 2 million and the place was packed ? I'm going to say no you've never seen a packed Grandstand in you life !!!
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Pacer2 ... you must've never been to the LBJ when there were 40,000 plus watching the race maybe 10,000 -15,000 this year ? Were you ever at the Mlands when they bet 4 plus million live handle on a Friday or Saturday night ? Were you ever at the International Trot at Roosevelt when they bet over 2 million and the place was packed ? I'm going to say no you've never seen a packed Grandstand in you life !!!
I'm going to say you have no clue why more standardbreds are selling for in excess of $500,000 than ever before in history. And you'd be wrong I've seen many packed grandstands before computers and cell phones. ngc3 ngc3
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I'm going to say you have no clue why more standardbreds are selling for in excess of $500,000 than ever before in history. And you'd be wrong I've seen many packed grandstands before computers and cell phones. ngc3 ngc3
Because the amount of money paid out in purses is really high due to the fact the industry is propped up. Take away the free money and watch it fail overnight. The idea of injecting all this money to make the purses higher has not worked. The thought of doing that was to get more people to bet.It is simple horses are selling for that much because the purses are paying out more. In Ohio the amount of non race horses is higher. If a fraction of the money injected into harness racing was put into lets say barrel racing you would see barrel horses selling for more money than they already are. You must be a socialist with your views and opinions
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Finally someone who gets it.
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pacer2 just isn't that smart.
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Years ago PINNACLE SPORTS became the biggest bookmaking outfit in north America and it was run by a group of gamblers from NEW YORK and they changed things for the better when it came to the gambler by making 8 cent line and 5 cent on certain bets and every smart gambler went to PINNACLE and when it came to horse racing they had a four class system with with A-B-C-D and the D meant you could only win 500 a race but the A was 25000 and the BIGM was the only A harness track had an A, Mohawk was a B and after a short while Mohawk became a D while Flamboro was a C and i was told that they got killed with MOHAWK and i went to a higher up at WEG and told them about this and let them know that working with Pinnacle could clean up racing and the official told me that last week a gambler got back 65000 for a 12 dollar bet at a TB track in a pentafecta and i asked him what did that have to do with my story and he said Canadians are much smarter than Americans and that is the reason Pinnacle made Mohawk a D, This guy was one of the top guys at WEG, Management allowed the bad racing happen by hiring dope after dope and all you have to do is watch the show on tv every night and i can not think off a bigger shit show around than watching a harness show with morons giving you no insight on the game,
I remember those -105 / -105 baseball lines well.
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I remember those -105 / -105 baseball lines well.
YES i messed up as that was the way PINNACLE started with five cent lines and they controlled the market and that was because the people who owned the site were gamblers and not suits, I will give you an example of suits running a place, Enzo owns a construction company and ENZO had a dad that played the track so he found interest in it and unless he bet 800-1000 a race he got no rush as he wanted to cash big if he won and the racetrack was the only game in town and now a casino opens one hour away and Enzo takes a trip and brings 15000 with him and gambles and win or loose a casino host is on him very quickly giving him the royal treatment and telling him about the great steak house and telling him about the gift shop that he can get free merch with the casino logo on it and Enzo enters the track a few days later and he has to pay for a program and is told that the dining room is sold out but he may get a seat if someone cancels, And all the Enzos who played the game became casino players and the track vig became way harder to survive and racetracks still did nothing to offset the loss of these people and these suits are still working today or they now have children moving up in management and this cycle will never end and racetracks finally figured it out by letting computer betters to keep the handle up and now make sure that they drive all gamblers away, The answer was always lower the rake big time and double the handle because winners will bet more but non gambler suits can not understand this easy recipe,
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Being proud that the industry is “thriving” on subsidies is like bragging about living off an EBT card and Section 8 housing. If it were truly thriving, wouldn’t the handle be higher than the purse?
You've just hit on the "American Dream" for many people. The number of poor people that welcome the birth of another child, to another father, with no means of supporting the ones already here, is amazing. I've had a few conversations with these types, always counselling against having kids early, as it is financially difficult. The response is always the same, "we'll just get money from the government." Seriously, that is what many have said.
Harness racing is in the same boat. There are too many that, completely wrongly so, believe that the money they are given is a good thing, and will always be there, and that they deserve it.
To those people, and the ones having multiple kids with no means, I say, "I hope all the funding disappears and you have to stand on your own feet. You deserve nothing and there is more than enough opportunity in this country to thrive."
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You've just hit on the "American Dream" for many people. The number of poor people that welcome the birth of another child, to another father, with no means of supporting the ones already here, is amazing. I've had a few conversations with these types, always counselling against having kids early, as it is financially difficult. The response is always the same, "we'll just get money from the government." Seriously, that is what many have said.
Harness racing is in the same boat. There are too many that, completely wrongly so, believe that the money they are given is a good thing, and will always be there, and that they deserve it.
To those people, and the ones having multiple kids with no means, I say, "I hope all the funding disappears and you have to stand on your own feet. You deserve nothing and there is more than enough opportunity in this country to thrive."
I hate getting involved in politics but your example makes no sense to me, So you are saying that the child should suffer with no food and no diapers because of a poor mother , Your believes to me show me no compassion and most likely will have future crime written all over it, With horsemen all the money goes to the wrong people like crooked driver and trainers and crooked owners and racetrack suits with racing comissions that reward crime and the grooms that do get helped out get paid very poorly for slave work.
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Because the amount of money paid out in purses is really high due to the fact the industry is propped up. Take away the free money and watch it fail overnight. The idea of injecting all this money to make the purses higher has not worked. The thought of doing that was to get more people to bet.It is simple horses are selling for that much because the purses are paying out more. In Ohio the amount of non race horses is higher. If a fraction of the money injected into harness racing was put into lets say barrel racing you would see barrel horses selling for more money than they already are. You must be a socialist with your views and opinions
One has to wonder how someone in Government hasn't noticed this is a failed experiment and pulled the plug on the money, or maybe they have. The next set of casinos in NY won't be required to be attached to a racetrack.
Perhaps this will be the end game.
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It is not thriving. If it was the sport would be growing. There are a bunch of cheaters earning big money while the majority suffer. This year has seen many top barns having awful years. This will not help going forward.
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One has to wonder how someone in Government hasn't noticed this is a failed experiment and pulled the plug on the money, or maybe they have. The next set of casinos in NY won't be required to be attached to a racetrack.
Perhaps this will be the end game.
when did the Government start doing the right thing. you could take racetrack suits and put them in Government and they would fit in.