HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: HarnessFan1981 on May 12, 2025, 03:32:50 PM
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East Rutherford, NJ — Beginning with this weekend’s (May 16 and 17) live racing, The Meadowlands will revert back to the formula of sending the horses onto the track at 0 minutes to post and going to the gate approximately seven minutes later.
Heeding customer complaints regarding the practice of “dragging” post time out, as is the new normal at virtually all tracks, and going off at “0” resulted in a sharp decline in export handle. Among the lessons learned was that our CAW customers could not adjust, resulting in a large percentage of the lost handle.
This experiment also reinforced the fact we will need a significant marketing budget to accomplish our goal of getting young people to become customers.
Should we succeed in getting a casino, we would use those revenues to properly market the on track experience, in turn raising the on track handle.
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And if we’re not fortunate to get a casino, to all the horseman, good luck and go fuck yourselves for all the bullshit I put up with to keep the sport alive.
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It is mind numbing to think that they publicly state they are reverting because the CAWs. I am speechless.
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the blaming CAWs is 100% a lie
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I think something is going on with the CAWs and them getting cut off from certain pools. The WPS pools have been decimateed...at a much higher ratio than the other pools.
On Saturday night most of the win pools were between $10,000-$20,000 which is just unheard of.
Friday even less.
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I think something is going on with the CAWs and them getting cut off from certain pools. The WPS pools have been decimateed...at a much higher ratio than the other pools.
On Saturday night most of the win pools were between $10,000-$20,000 which is just unheard of.
Friday even less.
The caw model doesn't work if they have to bet before 2 mtp. So they back off and bet somewhere else. They win the battle and we all lose.
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You will NEVER get young people to an event where they have to wait 25 + minutes between action. When Gural finally gives up or goes on to the promised land,, the fat lady will sing…. She is humming now.
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So Chicken Run 2026 is already canceled? ngc3
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You will NEVER get young people to an event where they have to wait 25 + minutes between action. When Gural finally gives up or goes on to the promised land,, the fat lady will sing…. She is humming now.
If by some miracle they get new young people to the track, it won't take long for them to realize the product is grossly overpriced in the gaming space and never come back. If they land a casino and were flush with cash, why not take the opportunity to lower takeout before you waste millions to market an unconpetitive product?
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East Rutherford, NJ — Beginning with this weekend’s (May 16 and 17) live racing, The Meadowlands will revert back to the formula of sending the horses onto the track at 0 minutes to post and going to the gate approximately seven minutes later.
Heeding customer complaints regarding the practice of “dragging” post time out, as is the new normal at virtually all tracks, and going off at “0” resulted in a sharp decline in export handle. Among the lessons learned was that our CAW customers could not adjust, resulting in a large percentage of the lost handle.
This experiment also reinforced the fact we will need a significant marketing budget to accomplish our goal of getting young people to become customers.
Should we succeed in getting a casino, we would use those revenues to properly market the on track experience, in turn raising the on track handle.
They defiantly gave this plenty of time for a fair test and for people to adjust. I cannot wait until states start pulling the slots funding and watch the whole industry cry. Once Gural is out of the picture, any casino revenue will NOT be used to subsidize racing.
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East Rutherford, NJ — Beginning with this weekend’s (May 16 and 17) live racing, The Meadowlands will revert back to the formula of sending the horses onto the track at 0 minutes to post and going to the gate approximately seven minutes later.
Heeding customer complaints regarding the practice of “dragging” post time out, as is the new normal at virtually all tracks, and going off at “0” resulted in a sharp decline in export handle. Among the lessons learned was that our CAW customers could not adjust, resulting in a large percentage of the lost handle.
This experiment also reinforced the fact we will need a significant marketing budget to accomplish our goal of getting young people to become customers.
Should we succeed in getting a casino, we would use those revenues to properly market the on track experience, in turn raising the on track handle.
They have absolutely no choice but to restore the drag time and the CAW's. They are getting crushed.
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It was a matter of time. There really isn't much difference. They put up 7 less MTP & drag.
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So if the margins on CAW handle is 2% and the blended margins on the rest is 7%. (host track fees etc), you net more off the other handle than the CAW handle plus you are rigging the game for them.
Sounds like a faulty business model with renegotiations needed.
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I admit to being a grumpy old man. The sport I loved from 1966 through pre-COVID no longer exists. I still enjoy watching races and betting a little, but between drug trainers, greedy track owners, crooked politicians, excessive drag and CAWS, my "love" is somewhat compromised.
There are literally dozens of reasons why tracks are closing and people are losing interest. I won't waste your time listing them. You know.
Thankfully I'll be dead before harness racing. But maybe not by much.
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I read an article last weekend that Mohawk had beaten Meadowlands handle substantially 4 out of 5 or 5 out of 6 cards which is unheard of.. so the common conclusion is some or more of the CAW money went from Meadowlands to Mohawk. I've said this on here before, but when I was a teenager and would go to Scioto they would have some of the bigger races at Meadowlands in Scioto's program to be able to watch and wager on. It was a big deal for us Midwesterners to be able to do that in the eighties and nineties. It's really sad with how far they have fallen with lower purses, less race dates, amateur races every card, not a great sires stakes program etc..
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Great point! There is little, if any difference in the amount of time between races. Now the CAWS can go back to stealing more easily, I guess.
It was a matter of time. There really isn't much difference. They put up 7 less MTP & drag.
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It was a matter of time. There really isn't much difference. They put up 7 less MTP & drag.
I find it amusing how some people don't realize that putting up 15 MTP and going on zero is the same as putting up 8 MTP and then sitting on zero for 7 minutes.
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happy to see the Meadowlands trying something!
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happy to see the Meadowlands trying something!
Are you that fucking dumb??? Trying something???? Trying something they killed 6 weeks ago and reinstated????? OMG you are beyond fucking STOOOOOOOOOOPID. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Here, the drag you're looking for.
(https://iili.io/38Qq5e2.md.jpg) (https://freeimage.host/i/38Qq5e2)
upload image (https://freeimage.host/)
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First, this:
https://harnessracingupdate.com/2025/05/02/getting-a-handle-on-lower-betting-numbers-at-the-big-m/
And then:
https://harnessracingupdate.com/2025/05/11/has-handle-at-woodbine-mohawk-park-benefitted-from-the-big-ms-betting-declines/
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Are you that fucking dumb??? Trying something???? Trying something they killed 6 weeks ago and reinstated????? OMG you are beyond fucking STOOOOOOOOOOPID. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Here, the drag you're looking for.
(https://iili.io/38Qq5e2.md.jpg) (https://freeimage.host/i/38Qq5e2)
upload image (https://freeimage.host/)
Hey dummy obviously you didn't read the press release.
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First, this:
https://harnessracingupdate.com/2025/05/02/getting-a-handle-on-lower-betting-numbers-at-the-big-m/
And then:
https://harnessracingupdate.com/2025/05/11/has-handle-at-woodbine-mohawk-park-benefitted-from-the-big-ms-betting-declines/
Those are the articles I was referencing on page 1 of this thread. Thanks for posting them tmbz1
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Barring something unforeseen the Meadowlands is not getting a casino with gural here. He has to know this by now. So he either keeps bitching bout losing money on keeping the track open or he pulls plug on big m. My guess is next year he wants out.
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He severely underestimated the strangle hold Atlantic City has on NJ government and its officials. They were never going to let that happen from day one. Jeffie thinks he is above all, and has found out he isn’t. He has turned the BigM into a big joke! Saturday nights had 100k claimers at one point. Some of those classes now are just embarrassing the legend of M1.
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He severely underestimated the strangle hold Atlantic City has on NJ government and its officials. They were never going to let that happen from day one. Jeffie thinks he is above all, and has found out he isn’t. He has turned the BigM into a big joke! Saturday nights had 100k claimers at one point. Some of those classes now are just embarrassing the legend of M1.
not just Gural--but also all the delusional fans,bettors and most of the industry also thought a casino was going to save the game
they called him "savior"--and many still do
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He severely underestimated the strangle hold Atlantic City has on NJ government and its officials. They were never going to let that happen from day one. Jeffie thinks he is above all, and has found out he isn’t. He has turned the BigM into a big joke! Saturday nights had 100k claimers at one point. Some of those classes now are just embarrassing the legend of M1.
When he cried round one in NYS with licenses being awarded and won it made him even more arrogant. But that's NYS, look at the investment by far bigger fish than he in AC. Not to mention the people who live in Bergen don't want it anyway. 150k claimers at one point. Last night that asshole Gaagoots said to me that at least Settlemoir tried new ideas. I said with exception of one, hones world class HARNESS RACING. Not this...
(https://iili.io/38LA6gt.md.png) (https://freeimage.host/i/38LA6gt)
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When he cried round one in NYS with licenses being awarded and won it made him even more arrogant. But that's NYS, look at the investment by far bigger fish than he in AC. Not to mention the people who live in Bergen don't want it anyway. 150k claimers at one point. Last night that asshole Gaagoots said to me that at least Settlemoir tried new ideas. I said with exception of one, hones world class HARNESS RACING. Not this...
(https://iili.io/38LA6gt.md.png) (https://freeimage.host/i/38LA6gt)
ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
THis had to be one of the dumbest things I've seen yet. And I thought Ostrich races were dumb lol
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I see that they are returning to the "drag"
but I don't see any statement about allowing Elite back into the WPS pools when they bet after the bell
the drag is to help retail bettors ...the CAWs wait until all other bets are in and then they make their bets
if Gural is still stopping Elite from the WPS pools at 2 minutes till post time--.then you wont see a dramatic increase in overall handle
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I see that they are returning to the "drag"
but I don't see any statement about allowing Elite back into the WPS pools when they bet after the bell
the drag is to help retail bettors ...the CAWs wait until all other bets are in and then they make their bets
if Gural is still stopping Elite from the WPS pools at 2 minutes till post time--.then you wont see a dramatic increase in overall handle
The poor CAWs lost their way with the drag and being cut off at 2mtp. Woah is me. No longer able to have a huge tactical advantage over everyone else. So gural reversed course cause it was costing him money
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The poor CAWs lost their way with the drag and being cut off at 2mtp. Woah is me. No longer able to have a huge tactical advantage over everyone else. So gural reversed course cause it was costing him money
is Elite allowed to bet in the WPS pools after the bell again?
I cannot find any documentation
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is Elite allowed to bet in the WPS pools after the bell again?
I cannot find any documentation
We have to read between the lines from what they released. I would say YES it's back to business as usual for the CAWs. Gural doesn't care that they are killing his product in the long term. He lost money a few weeks in a row and that was the end of that
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It doesn't say, but I'm assuming that's the main reason they're reinstating the drag. I don't think they want the betting public to know bets are being made after the bell.
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we will find out Friday night--the wild odds fluctuations after the bell will tell the tale on Elite
as far as Gural--he knows his fans are mostly dopes--the ones who think all bets are made before the race starts-so I agree he wont announce that pick-pocketing is back in action
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By the time the CAWs completely cannibalize the product and drive the meadowlands into extinction (100% chance of happening) gural will already be gone. In the interim, all he cares about is his week to week bottom line numbers
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By the time the CAWs completely cannibalize the product and drive the meadowlands into extinction (100% chance of happening) gural will already be gone. In the interim, all he cares about is his week to week bottom line numbers
What a ridiculous statement to make. Did you ever own any business yourself? The bottom line is what determines profitability and viability so what are you talking about? Gural is correct to revert back to a more profitable approach and the complaints here are from people who probably don't even bet the Meadowlands nor bet a lot and complain when they lose $50.00 a night betting.
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What a ridiculous statement to make. Did you ever own any business yourself? The bottom line is what determines profitability and viability so what are you talking about? Gural is correct to revert back to a more profitable approach and the complaints here are from people who probably don't even bet the Meadowlands nor bet a lot and complain when they lose $50.00 a night betting.
Actually. Even at 3.mil they he loses money. There isn't a more profitable anything at M1 and hasn't been since Clinton was in office.
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What a ridiculous statement to make. Did you ever own any business yourself? The bottom line is what determines profitability and viability so what are you talking about? Gural is correct to revert back to a more profitable approach and the complaints here are from people who probably don't even bet the Meadowlands nor bet a lot and complain when they lose $50.00 a night betting.
More profitable approach? Are you serious? Nothing is profitable about the meadowlands raving product. Talk about a ridiculous comment.
I believe 1000% you work there. Everyone there always goes to the "you don't bet much anyway" approach. Its usually $2 a race but you double that up.
The approach to let caws canibalize the product mOre and more each year is incredibly short sited. Most successful business owners have an eye for the long term viabikity of their business, btw. They don't fly by the seat of their pants week to week trying to maximize that week's revenue
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More profitable approach? Are you serious? Nothing is profitable about the meadowlands raving product. Talk about a ridiculous comment.
I believe 1000% you work there. Everyone there always goes to the "you don't bet much anyway" approach. Its usually $2 a race but you double that up.
The approach to let caws canibalize the product mOre and more each year is incredibly short sited. Most successful business owners have an eye for the long term viabikity of their business, btw. They don't fly by the seat of their pants week to week trying to maximize that week's revenue
Wrong! I am retired and never worked at a track but have owned 20 harness horses. Taking in $1.3 MILLION less in handle is less profitable than taking it, isn't it? He has many tax loopholes to defray the losses he sustains as well.
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Wrong! I am retired and never worked at a track but have owned 20 harness horses. Taking in $1.3 MILLION less in handle is less profitable than taking it, isn't it? He has many tax loopholes to defray the losses he sustains as well.
3.1 is not profitable.
1.8 is not profitable.
What he is doing is losing less money buy going back catering to caws, screwing retail players and screwing himself long term.
There's a very big difference between losing less and gaining more profit
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By the time the CAWs completely cannibalize the product and drive the meadowlands into extinction (100% chance of happening) gural will already be gone. In the interim, all he cares about is his week to week bottom line numbers
I completely agree about the CAWs cannibalizing themselves--we are already seeing evidence of that
as far as how long Gural lasts or how long he hangs in there(waiting for a casino) is anyone's guess
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3.1 is not profitable.
1.8 is not profitable.
What he is doing is losing less money buy going back catering to caws, screwing retail players and screwing himself long term.
There's a very big difference between losing less and gaining more profit
He loses money at both handles. Every year he loses more than ten million that he lays out of pocket. Gaining???? WHAT GAINING????
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With things back to the prior way, the handle increased by $900,000 from the previous Friday.
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With things back to the prior way, the handle increased by $900,000 from the previous Friday.
Thank goodness the CAWs are no longer inconvenienced
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You said it pocket.
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Thank goodness the CAWs are no longer inconvenienced
I am sure the $900k increase was mostly CAW and not so much the drag
did the dramatic odds changes after the bell occur?
I was watching the basketball game and Charlestown
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I am sure the $900k increase was mostly CAW and not so much the drag
did the dramatic odds changes after the bell occur?
I was watching the basketball game and Charlestown
Of course Settlemoir will credit the drag for the increased handle but the majority of it came from the CAW's and he knows it.
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Over $3 million in handle again tonight kids!
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Over $3 million in handle again tonight kids!
when over $1.5 mil is CAW action--this is not something to be proud of tmbz1
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Interesting.. the last few weekends Mohawk had more handle, and this weekend Meadowlands had almost a million dollars more handle per night. Does anyone know if the CAW's are allowed to fire into the WPS pool with less than 2 minutes to post, that was changed and I wonder if that is the main cause of the increase. It has to be right?
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yes-the CAWs are back to what they were doing before, this is the only reason they even get close to a $3mil handle
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Do people here invest in stocks? No different there! The big hedge funds determine the price and the small investors go along for the ride. If you don't like it, find something else to bet on with your money. The main objective is to have FUN betting a race and getting excited over your choice.
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EAST COAST RACING IS ON LIFE SUPPRT
PA,,PURSES WILL DROP SOON PER TH GOVERNOR ONLY REASON BIGM IS OPEN IS GURAL,
KENTUCKY ,,OHIO MAYBE INDY ,, WILL BE DESTIONATION SPOTS FOR ALL THE BIG TRANERS AND LARGE BARNS
ALAGNA FARM UP FOR SALE ..
MANY MOVING WITHIN A YR OR 2
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Do people here invest in stocks? No different there! The big hedge funds determine the price and the small investors go along for the ride. If you don't like it, find something else to bet on with your money. The main objective is to have FUN betting a race and getting excited over your choice.
Everything wrong with the entire sport encapsulated into 1 post. Sadly, this is how many many view it. Including management. The industry is 1000% doomed
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Everything wrong with the entire sport encapsulated into 1 post. Sadly, this is how many many view it. Including management. The industry is 1000% doomed
Why is this wrong? I’m guessing you think the stock market is going to die soon also. It is the nature of business. Big fish always get a bit of an advantage
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Hope is not a strategy.
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Why is this wrong? I’m guessing you think the stock market is going to die soon also. It is the nature of business. Big fish always get a bit of an advantage
1. The only industry in history that universally thinks it's "right" to tell customers to go consume a competitors product if you don't like it
2. The industry doesn't even know their own product. Its not selling "fun". They aren't selling "Fun". Thus isn't an amusement park. This isn't the NFL. Racing is in GAMBLING industry. They sell a GAMBLING product
No, I am positive that I can believe that horse racing is doomed and the stock market will be perfectly fine. This is not a relevant comparison whatsoever
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Do people here invest in stocks? No different there! The big hedge funds determine the price and the small investors go along for the ride. If you don't like it, find something else to bet on with your money. The main objective is to have FUN betting a race and getting excited over your choice.
so you think it is just fine to get cheated on the price you get?
I am supposed to get excited and have fun when my horse blasts to the lead and his odds drop from 9/2 to 4/5?
you are delusional and that mentality is exactly what CAWs prey on....easy money.
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The handle is back to where it was and will top $3 million easily tonight.
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All-source betting totaled $3,594,870, the second biggest night of business this year at The Big M!
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1. The only industry in history that universally thinks it's "right" to tell customers to go consume a competitors product if you don't like it
2. The industry doesn't even know their own product. Its not selling "fun". They aren't selling "Fun". Thus isn't an amusement park. This isn't the NFL. Racing is in GAMBLING industry. They sell a GAMBLING product
No, I am positive that I can believe that horse racing is doomed and the stock market will be perfectly fine. This is not a relevant comparison whatsoever
In response to your #1 there. Do you think McDonald’s is going to use better beef because you don’t like their burgers? No they will keep their recipe the same and you can go to Wendy’s. Will Wall Street give you a better price on stocks because you are a minority player? No. They will cater to the big investors. Same with any other industry. When you buy a vehicle do you get the same price as someone buying 1000 in fleet vehicles. Absolutely not
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In response to your #1 there. Do you think McDonald’s is going to use better beef because you don’t like their burgers? No they will keep their recipe the same and you can go to Wendy’s. Will Wall Street give you a better price on stocks because you are a minority player? No. They will cater to the big investors. Same with any other industry. When you buy a vehicle do you get the same price as someone buying 1000 in fleet vehicles. Absolutely not
My point is that mcdonalds will never ever disregard your feedback with total disdain and then tell you to go to wendys. That's exactly what racing does. Racing despises the people who gamble on their product and have no problem telling you that your feedback is totally unwanted and to take your business elsewhere.
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My point is that mcdonalds will never ever disregard your feedback with total disdain and then tell you to go to wendys. That's exactly what racing does. Racing despises the people who gamble on their product and have no problem telling you that your feedback is totally unwanted and to take your business elsewhere.
Have they ever changed their process due to your complaints?
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If McDonalds had too many complaints about a certain product they would drop it from their menu.
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Have they ever changed their process due to your complaints?
Of course. Every successful business I've ever been associated with scrutinizes critical client feedback/complaints, find themselves and Implements improvements to adhere to our clients. It is absolutely critical. Humongous financial resources are dedicated to it. It is critical to any viable business. This is the real business world. Racing does it the opposite way and fails year after year after year
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If McDonalds had too many complaints about a certain product they would drop it from their menu.
Of course they would. Or change it to accommodate what their customers want. Racing is very bizarre.
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I was watching the pools last night. I think it was either the 3rd or 4th race. When the race started there was about 13k in the win pool. At the 1/4 pole there was 25k.
When they hit the 1/2 there was over 40k in the win pool. Can someone explain to me why is there such a lag in closing the pool. Are the computer wagers being bet after the race has started? After watching that I really lost interest in playing. Mind you I'm not a big bettor but I feel for people who bet bigger thinking as the race starts how the odds can dramatically change.
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I was watching the pools last night. I think it was either the 3rd or 4th race. When the race started there was about 13k in the win pool. At the 1/4 pole there was 25k.
When they hit the 1/2 there was over 40k in the win pool. Can someone explain to me why is there such a lag in closing the pool. Are the computer wagers being bet after the race has started? After watching that I really lost interest in playing. Mind you I'm not a big bettor but I feel for people who bet bigger thinking as the race starts how the odds can dramatically change.
duh
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In response to your #1 there. Do you think McDonald’s is going to use better beef because you don’t like their burgers? No they will keep their recipe the same and you can go to Wendy’s. Will Wall Street give you a better price on stocks because you are a minority player? No. They will cater to the big investors. Same with any other industry. When you buy a vehicle do you get the same price as someone buying 1000 in fleet vehicles. Absolutely not
You know it Stan. In business money talks big time.