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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Harper on May 08, 2025, 09:15:25 AM
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When harness racing goes away, the biggest losers will be the breeders. They do a great job promoting themselves to sell yearlings but what are they doing to help the industry survive?
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When harness racing goes away, the biggest losers will be the breeders.
No. The breeders all have land assets and might even benefit from a collapse of the industry. I'm rural and borderline starving but if I sold up I could be a real pretentious poseur (which is of course my real goal in life).
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Interesting and thought provoking question. I think breeders can be the biggest positive and the biggest negative as well. Just look at the commercial breeders motive. It's their entire business model. They don't sell horses. They sell yearlings. I am not a yearling buyer for the most part. But I am a horse owner. I am fully vested in the sport and the industry. While I am not their yearling buyer client, I don't think they do enough for the sport and industry as a whole.
I think they do a lot for 2yo racing. Of course they do. Some for 3yo racing. Not enough. Sponsoring a race is not doing something. That's advertising. Yes, it may add to the purse. I want to see them do more, for 3yo's and aged racing, but they have no incentive to. I want to see them do more for sire stakes, although they've done a good job there. It can still get better. Commercial breeders will get out of the business before the sport and business disappear-----because the sport and business won't.
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Remember, highest and best use. Their real asset is real estate. Ask Armstrong Brothers, the Baugh Family (Almahurst), the Dodge/Van Lennep Family (Castleton), and the list goes on.
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It would be interesting to know the percentage of breeders that are profitable. The high end of the yearling market, especially trotting fillies, is absolutely crazy, however this is in comparison to all breeding is a small number. The rest of the breeding market I think is getting crushed?
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When harness racing goes away, the biggest losers will be the breeders. They do a great job promoting themselves to sell yearlings but what are they doing to help the industry survive?
Money that is ultimately obtained through the states in the form of purse welfare and ag development. Nearly every yearling sale is from within the industry. Literally money laundering. Look at the breeders, then look at they buyers. A closed circle. States pour in money from the outside, breeders make them, dirtbags buy them and the pot is divided. tmbz1
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Money that is ultimately obtained through the states in the form of purse welfare and ag development. Nearly every yearling sale is from within the industry. Literally money laundering. Look at the breeders, then look at they buyers. A closed circle. States pour in money from the outside, breeders make them, dirtbags buy them and the pot is divided. tmbz1
So you would say the same thing for the electric car industry?
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So you would say the same thing for the electric car industry?
Are we talking about the electric car industry? Do you drive an electric vehicle? 80% of the revenue for harness racing is welfare. And....how many horses does the electric car industry manufacture, drug then kill? How many electric car vehicle races the public wagers on being fixed or manipulated with illegal drugs or manipulation??? You just lost the discussion. Maybe you can compare it with drug cartels next. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 Actually, they make their own money unlike harness racing.
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Are we talking about the electric car industry? Do you drive an electric vehicle? 80% of the revenue for harness racing is welfare. And....how many horses does the electric car industry manufacture, drug then kill? How many electric car vehicle races the public wagers on being fixed or manipulated with illegal drugs or manipulation??? You just lost the discussion. Maybe you can compare it with drug cartels next. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 Actually, they make their own money unlike harness racing.
All that I am saying that the government, federal,state and local, give out “welfare” to many businesses. You act like novel to harness racing. There are studies which I am sure you know, show that in some states the money given by the government is returned in spades to the job creation and economic impact it has for the state.
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All that I am saying that the government, federal,state and local, give out “welfare” to many businesses. You act like novel to harness racing. There are studies which I am sure you know, show that in some states the money given by the government is returned in spades to the job creation and economic impact it has for the state.
And all those industries provide a necessity to society. Harness racing provides NOTHING and the day it dies the effect it will have on society is ZERO. tmbz1
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It would be interesting to know the percentage of breeders that are profitable. The high end of the yearling market, especially trotting fillies, is absolutely crazy, however this is in comparison to all breeding is a small number. The rest of the breeding market I think is getting crushed?
Great question. Who knows. Even if they are profitable, at a certain point, it becomes a question of highest and best use. That's why Armstrong sold. It didn't matter if the kids, grandkids, were involved in the sport/industry. It was simply that Armbro and the farm was an asset. Could the trustees do better elsewhere and/or with less risk. It's an investment decision. If the land is worth more for another use, I would think that farm's days are numbered unfortunately. The more I think about it, the more it starts looking like the MBS/CDS world to me.
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When harness racing goes away, the biggest losers will be the breeders. They do a great job promoting themselves to sell yearlings but what are they doing to help the industry survive?
The breeders are a big part of the problem. As soon as a horse is a "star" they are off to a breeding farm never to be seen again. Having the best horses on the track is how to attract fans. The root of this problem goes back to the slots handouts which has made the value of all horse increase significantly which make breeding more lucrative.
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All that I am saying that the government, federal,state and local, give out “welfare” to many businesses. You act like novel to harness racing. There are studies which I am sure you know, show that in some states the money given by the government is returned in spades to the job creation and economic impact it has for the state.
The difference is the general public wants those products. The general public could care less about racing.
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The difference is the general public wants those products. The general public could care less about racing.
Holy Shit, you're a Horseplop unicorn! ngc3 Exactly. These clowns will never admit the only reason they need the welfare continued is if they lose their jobs in the game they will have to learn REAL SKILLS and find employment in the REAL WORLD. Harness Racing does nothing, it's not even a sought after form of entertainment by anyone in the US. tmbz1
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On one hand, the current business model and landscape for a commercial breeder (in the ideal world) is to sell big money yearlings, have the buyers of those yearlings make big money as a 2yo's, come back to the next year's sale, and start the cycle all over again, LOL. Then they create stallions, retire them, syndicate, etc. It keeps the money-making machine for the breeders. On the other hand, they "could" do more to keep horses racing past their 3yo year. But they really can't. They won't. It's counterintuitive and counterproductive to their business model. Now if the tracks, the Hambletonian Society, the BC, and so on-----if they could start to allocate more money toward 3yo's and slowly start to do the same for aged horses, then you have a segment that can counter the breeders. Someone has to start somewhere.
There is no one thing that is going to resolve all of the sport and industry's struggles. Starting with PED's, illegal drugs, chemists, cheats, etc., is a good place to start. Throwing out the garbage is most often a good place to start no matter what you're talking about, LOL. So many other issues are like cutting off one of Hydra's heads! LOL.
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Yes, I think the breeders are a big part of the problem.
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Yes, I think the breeders are a big part of the problem.
https://youtu.be/MfzFyntMw4c?si=1GnIguD-CL9-H9Yv
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On one hand, the current business model and landscape for a commercial breeder (in the ideal world) is to sell big money yearlings, have the buyers of those yearlings make big money as a 2yo's, come back to the next year's sale, and start the cycle all over again, LOL. Then they create stallions, retire them, syndicate, etc. It keeps the money-making machine for the breeders. On the other hand, they "could" do more to keep horses racing past their 3yo year. But they really can't. They won't. It's counterintuitive and counterproductive to their business model. Now if the tracks, the Hambletonian Society, the BC, and so on-----if they could start to allocate more money toward 3yo's and slowly start to do the same for aged horses, then you have a segment that can counter the breeders. Someone has to start somewhere.
There is no one thing that is going to resolve all of the sport and industry's struggles. Starting with PED's, illegal drugs, chemists, cheats, etc., is a good place to start. Throwing out the garbage is most often a good place to start no matter what you're talking about, LOL. So many other issues are like cutting off one of Hydra's heads! LOL.
If all the trainers using illegal drugs, bearding and cheating, no track could fill the box!
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It's not all. Listen, while very, very few are racing on hay, oats, and water, therapeutic drugs have a place in the sport. They have cut off times. I am talking about the guys who are using drugs that have zero place in the sport. Zero tolerance doesn't have to be like the "wellness" policy in the WWE, LOL.
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It's not all. Listen, while very, very few are racing on hay, oats, and water, therapeutic drugs have a place in the sport. They have cut off times. I am talking about the guys who are using drugs that have zero place in the sport. Zero tolerance doesn't have to be like the "wellness" policy in the WWE, LOL.
Isn't it interesting that over the last decade the Yonkers leading trainers have either been suspended or jailed for drugs? Banca, Allard, Dowse, Emblom. Who have I left off the list?
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And I think that's a very good thing. I think more should be done. Throw more of them in jail.
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All that I am saying that the government, federal,state and local, give out “welfare” to many businesses. You act like novel to harness racing. There are studies which I am sure you know, show that in some states the money given by the government is returned in spades to the job creation and economic impact it has for the state.
The Feds gave out 37.000,000,000,000 and now what is it 25% of the budget pays the interest and my Grandchildren will be paying this off for years
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When harness racing goes away, the biggest losers will be the breeders. They do a great job promoting themselves to sell yearlings but what are they doing to help the industry survive?
When is harness racing going away? I've been hearing that nonsense for 35 years! ngc3 ngc3
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back to the topic
breeders help the sport by providing the best bred, best conformed yearlings that can be bought to try and win races and money, they supply the product the sport requires
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Isn't it interesting that over the last decade the Yonkers leading trainers have either been suspended or jailed for drugs? Banca, Allard, Dowse, Emblom. Who have I left off the list?
Pena was tossed, Sumner was tossed, Madeiros was tossed when they figured out he was beard for Sumner.
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back to the topic
breeders help the sport by providing the best bred, best conformed yearlings that can be bought to try and win races and money, they supply the product the sport requires
Yep, they take the money the state hands them to create the animals that are used to take even more and then they kill them. tmbz1
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Yep, they take the money the state hands them to create the animals that are used to take even more and then they kill them. tmbz1
Again you over exaggerate the problem with horse racing. An overwhelming majority of horses of all breeds are taken better care of than American kids in our inner cities. Absolutely some end up in kill pens and don’t live the best later life but that’s the minority. Go visit your local low income nursing home or Section 8 housing in Harlem and report back how they are doing.
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back to the topic
breeders help the sport by providing the best bred, best conformed yearlings that can be bought to try and win races and money, they supply the product the sport requires
Don't the bigger breeders keep their best ones and sell the others!
Done in the past!
Still done today?
Rumor has it they send out people to upbid their horses at auction too!
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back to the topic
breeders help the sport by providing the best bred, best conformed yearlings that can be bought to try and win races and money, they supply the product the sport requires
They do NOTHING to promote the sport, just their own product.
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Breeders stare at the clock like the bettors do
thats why they dont want to crackdown on gassers/juicers
faster times equate to higher sales prices
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Everybody is the business knows it's not a fair and efficient market. Christie's and Sotheby's, LOL. Every farm wants to sell big money yearls, and wants top, winning trainers to buy them. They do what they can to make that happen. And the bus keeps rolling down the road, LOL.
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Again you over exaggerate the problem with horse racing. An overwhelming majority of horses of all breeds are taken better care of than American kids in our inner cities. Absolutely some end up in kill pens and don’t live the best later life but that’s the minority. Go visit your local low income nursing home or Section 8 housing in Harlem and report back how they are doing.
tmbz1 tmbz1 He's an immature child ngc3 ngc3
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back to the topic
breeders help the sport by providing the best bred, best conformed yearlings that can be bought to try and win races and money, they supply the product the sport requires
They hurt the sport by taking the "stars" of the sport off the track as soon as possible. If you want the people to support the sport, you need the stars racing. The Pittsburgh Pirates get about 9,000 a game but when Paul Skenes pitches they sell out. The stars need to be on the track.
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wow, some shocking comments on this thread
i can only assume that most have never bred a horse before
let me respond
1. its not the breeders job to promote the sport, the USTA/Hambletonian society and regional programs need to do that
2.no bigger breeders do not keep their best and sell the rest...FYI!!, at that time no one knows who will be the best, of course from time to time a breeders will keep a well bred filly to update his broodmare band , most breeders cant afford to keep yearlings, they need to sell them
3. up bidding, i am sure in some cases a breeder will protect up to a certain dollar figure , and yes the odd time they may buy one back if they feel they were not getting close to fair value for it, remember they have seen these horse since birth, and if they are doing it and get hung with a few high priced ones that will stop immediately
4. taking starts off the track, yes to a minor extent, clearly one or two stallions per season and yes more mares than that , however the sport can curtail that by making more funds available for 4 yr olds and aged horses, kentucky has started that , also recent moderate results of bettors wish tds, greenshoe etc might mean that people are not so quick to take them off the track and the few stallion barns out there may not be as quick to want to syndicate them , also i do notice twin b joe fresh and sylvia hanover still racing and jiggy jog was racing until injured
5. harness revolution, you need to let go, you clearly have an axe to grind and are bitter on every aspect of the sport, i have been to the top notch breeding farms and i can tell yo that the mares and foals are treated like their children
6. just a general comment for all if you do not have any expertise on a subject, i.e breeding or breeders just take a pass on the subject, you don't need to respond to every thread