HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Racetime on April 29, 2025, 06:20:01 AM
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Is anyone taking bets on the next track to close ?
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Rosecroft....char ging $50 entry fee to race for peanuts
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NORTHVILLE'S ACTION AT HASTINGS DOWNS ;D
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One of those smaller Canadian tracks
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Probably Hawthorne, or one of the new York tracks.. Vernon or Tiaoga
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Gulfstream Park
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Losing Pompano, Freehold, Cal Expo, & Northville in a short period is bad for the sport. There is definitely more to come. I agree that a small Canadian track will close...not sure which one. VD & Tioga have no handle. Tioga has some okay purses. At this rate is it who is next or how many more?
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Next to close..Hawthorne and Rosecroft. I don't see either one of these tracks surviving. Monticello is another that will probably close in the next couple years.
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My vote is for Monticello.
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I guess what I need to know is....
Is harness racing for participants or fans, or blended both, with what percentage taking precedent, or is it intended to be 50/50?
If harness racing is for participants, close all tracks with small purses. That is easy.
If for fans, close all with no handle. Again, easy.
Believers in the first fail to see that without a focus for fans, who will pay for the participation long term?
And, on the second part, if participants are not paid, why will they race for fans?
The bridge to the second perspective seems clearer to me. More fans, means more potential revenue to pay the participants, and thus encourage them to race.
The first perspective requires an independent source, a handout to some, to continue to race.
Clearly, some blend is needed, but it seems a focus towards fan participation leads to more on track participation, than vice versa.
Just a quick, probably incomplete summary, of what I've felt for a while, yet never expressed.
So, if I were to be in charge of closing tracks, I would close small handle tracks and shift their purse revenue, where possible, to larger fan base tracks. In NY, much of the Vernon, Vernon, Tioga and Buffalo money would go to Monticello, where there is a clear desire from fans to continue racing.
Buffalo's Saturday card....13 races, top handle was $19,172, with 3 races handling under 10K.
Monticello's Monday card.....9 races, top handle was $58,688, while the lowest was a single race with just over 11K, and all others closer to, and well over 30K.
Harness racing seems to offer more of what people care less about. I'm not sure that is good business.
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Probably Hawthorne, or one of the new York tracks.. Vernon or Tiaoga
Vernon has been life support for years now.
Hawthorne has been getting worse
Over the years due to recapture and bad management.
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I guess what I need to know is....
Is harness racing for participants or fans, or blended both, with what percentage taking precedent, or is it intended to be 50/50?
If harness racing is for participants, close all tracks with small purses. That is easy.
If for fans, close all with no handle. Again, easy.
Believers in the first fail to see that without a focus for fans, who will pay for the participation long term?
And, on the second part, if participants are not paid, why will they race for fans?
The bridge to the second perspective seems clearer to me. More fans, means more potential revenue to pay the participants, and thus encourage them to race.
The first perspective requires an independent source, a handout to some, to continue to race.
Clearly, some blend is needed, but it seems a focus towards fan participation leads to more on track participation, than vice versa.
Just a quick, probably incomplete summary, of what I've felt for a while, yet never expressed.
So, if I were to be in charge of closing tracks, I would close small handle tracks and shift their purse revenue, where possible, to larger fan base tracks. In NY, much of the Vernon, Vernon, Tioga and Buffalo money would go to Monticello, where there is a clear desire from fans to continue racing.
Buffalo's Saturday card....13 races, top handle was $19,172, with 3 races handling under 10K.
Monticello's Monday card.....9 races, top handle was $58,688, while the lowest was a single race with just over 11K, and all others closer to, and well over 30K.
Harness racing seems to offer more of what people care less about. I'm not sure that is good business.
It is an entertainment/sports product which should be supported by customers/patrons/fans not government handouts. If the customers/patrons/fans do not support the product sufficiently then the product should be changed or cease to exist. Tax dollars should not support something the public does not want.
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Monticello
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It is an entertainment/sports product which should be supported by customers/patrons/fans not government handouts. If the customers/patrons/fans do not support the product sufficiently then the product should be changed or cease to exist. Tax dollars should not support something the public does not want.
I certainly lean this direction, if not land squarely on this.
I think I was just trying to avoid giving my middle finger to participants...a bad habit of mine, at times, not wanting to rock the boat!
ngc3
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I guess what I need to know is....
Is harness racing for participants or fans, or blended both, with what percentage taking precedent, or is it intended to be 50/50?
If harness racing is for participants, close all tracks with small purses. That is easy.
If for fans, close all with no handle. Again, easy.
Believers in the first fail to see that without a focus for fans, who will pay for the participation long term?
And, on the second part, if participants are not paid, why will they race for fans?
The bridge to the second perspective seems clearer to me. More fans, means more potential revenue to pay the participants, and thus encourage them to race.
The first perspective requires an independent source, a handout to some, to continue to race.
Clearly, some blend is needed, but it seems a focus towards fan participation leads to more on track participation, than vice versa.
Just a quick, probably incomplete summary, of what I've felt for a while, yet never expressed.
So, if I were to be in charge of closing tracks, I would close small handle tracks and shift their purse revenue, where possible, to larger fan base tracks. In NY, much of the Vernon, Vernon, Tioga and Buffalo money would go to Monticello, where there is a clear desire from fans to continue racing.
Buffalo's Saturday card....13 races, top handle was $19,172, with 3 races handling under 10K.
Monticello's Monday card.....9 races, top handle was $58,688, while the lowest was a single race with just over 11K, and all others closer to, and well over 30K.
Harness racing seems to offer more of what people care less about. I'm not sure that is good business.
If a track closes there no “purse revenue” to move. You need to clarify that one?
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It is an entertainment/sports product which should be supported by customers/patrons/fans not government handouts. If the customers/patrons/fans do not support the product sufficiently then the product should be changed or cease to exist. Tax dollars should not support something the public does not want.
IT MIGHT BE WORTH LOOKING INTO. SINCE ITS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE. THE RESULTS MIGHT CHANGE HOW YOU VIEW THINGS.
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IT MIGHT BE WORTH LOOKING INTO. SINCE ITS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE. THE RESULTS MIGHT CHANGE HOW YOU VIEW THINGS.
I have been a fan/customer for more than four decades. I have watch the sport die. The industry turned its back on the customers and now the customers are gone. Harness racing only exists they way it does not because it is dependent of government handouts. The industry brought that on itself. It is only a matter of time until states have budget short falls. Voters hate tax increases so it is only a matter of time until the handouts are diverted for other uses.
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On the Canadian scene..
Georgian south of Barrie enters whats possibly its last, or next to last kick at the can with another casino down the way...same time in Ottawa, unless someone steps in, Rideaus backstretch is being taken away.
These two tracks compliment each other and Kawartha in Lindsay, Ontario nicely as well as Trois Rivieres, Quebecs only track, too. And all four of them have occasional forays to Mohawk in Campbellville, eest of Toronto to try to make some 'special' eve profit too.
So concerns there.
Out west Fraser in Surrey, BC gets the Alberta boys and girls coming in to take lots of their cash twice a week. Not sure whats left of a once fine 5/8 operation for local horsemen there and dwindling bettors everywhere alike.
Stateside, with Cal Expo shutting, whats the Running Aces Minnesota story? Its a solid operation BUT Cal Expo is where many went to fill out their 12 month work and live schedule.
Obviously, variety of spots with some 'concerns'. Heres hoping answers found
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Harness racing in certain places is very secure other place sell for Financial reasons, sorry to see certain tracks close, like freehold and pompano, which was a corrupt place if anybody smart enough to know that now cal expo is on the ropes. Very sad for people that have been in the horse business and spent their whole lives working with their horses over the years to only have their track clothes. However, this is the way the world is today most people don’t give a damn about what racing. I still love it. I still watch it, the reality is It’s always been a Richmond’s game and now you gotta have even more money expenses for horses are up through the roof. The whole game is a gamble. Everybody knows it but it’s fun to watch.
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I just got back from Vegas and the tellers at my hotel/casino's sportsbook did not even know what harness racing is. Seriously! I spoke to a supervisor who said "no one bets on that, so my guys don't know anything about it." No programs available for handicapping either. I was able to find one lone self-serve betting kiosk that let me bet on Meadowlands, Pocono, Yonkers, Cal Expo, and Woodbine. Forget circling the drain, we are already in the drain pipe.
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Yonkers is now screwed after May 15. MGM is laying people off and they are losing millions daily. Go to Vegas and see what they are closing down. My guess is Yonkers will be on a no contract after May 15th and horseman will be screwed.
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Maybe but if you race at Yonkers and you have horses that are good to compete you make money they even compensate horses they finish 6/7 and eighth At least get your shipping money in your pocket. It’s a win-win when you race there except it’s a half mile track, which makes it tough on the horses very competitive racing.🐴🙆🏻♂️
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Certain tracks would close, regardless of how they are doing, if casino companies had the right to close them. Other tracks will close because they are simply no longer viable and/or highest and best use for real estate. Plain and simple. The sport and the industry need a purge, cleanse, and consolidation. It has to get worse before it gets better. Those that survive will only do so if they make drastic changes. I always thought Gulfstream was the "model" track for the future, but even now racing there beyond the next two to five years may be in trouble. YR has long been a track owners want to race at because of the purses, but nobody wants to go. For years Rooney put money into the casino side of the plant, and let the racing side simply atrophy. Then they sold out to a casino company. Of course they did. LOL.
Aside from all this, the industry and sport still needs to deal with all it's ills. Baseball had its own to do, cycling, and so has other sports. Horse racing is unique, yes, but trials and tribulations still have to be resolved. If not, they consume you.
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Its not a one way street as some would have you believe. There have been track openings also....
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New tracks wouldn't open if there wasn't something in it for them, because they couldn't make it on racing alone.
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Its not a one way street as some would have you believe. There have been track openings also....
Mainly Kentucky. There are big dollars going into racing there but will that continue long-term? The Red Mile is not that busy even on Futurity Day. What happens when the politicians need government money for other things?
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Its not a one way street as some would have you believe. There have been track openings also....
If decoupling was allowed everywhere, how many racinos would remain open as a race track and casino?
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If decoupling was allowed everywhere, how many racinos would remain open as a race track and casino?
Somewhere between none and a very select few.
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The "new" tracks are typically just replacements. Kentucky had Thunder Ridge and Bluegrass Downs. Ohio had Lebanon and Raceway. Virginia had Colonial.
Sure, purses at the "new" tracks are better, but that is just because of the supplement they receive. Handle and interest has only gone down. (OK, Bluegrass, maybe it is up from there! ngc3)
Hell, Illinois once had close to 600 cards of racing a year, between Quad City Downs, Fairmount, Balmoral, Maywood, Sportsmens, etc. California had Los and Cal and 4 times the racing opportunities. It is on one way street.
This is about my 40th year being a huge fan. Harness racing has provided so much for me, truly! I once thought I could not live without it. I lived for the next card. I loved it and made life moves based on track location. As crazy as that sounds, it is true.
Now, however, when I hear of a track closing, my first response is a great deal of sadness, but that quickly fades, as the sport I once loved is just not the same. I'm still here, basically every day, and will be until it or I end. But, with each passing year, it takes up a little less time in my life. Hell, I was with TRN back in the 90's and of course switched to Dish when RTN went there (up to 6 decoders, split, and so many recording devices). Tomorrow, I will only have the signal online, and, that is about all I need now. It just isn't the same.
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While many professional "handicappers" have made the leap from harness to t-breds-----if the Meadowlands and Woodbine closed, which they won't-----I would simply "retire" as a handicapper. I might continue as an "owner," but the business model would have to work. I might also continue as a "breeder" but I suspect that aspect of the industry would greatly suffer as well without those two tracks.
I see less tracks, less racing short-term, and racetracks that offer other/alternative forms of entertainment, wagering/gambling, etc., as the business model of the future.
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the only reason Kentucky has been thriving(Oak Ridge, Cumberland)and all their Tbred tracks is due to "historical racing machines"--a type of slot machine where a large part of the profits are allocated to the purses.
if you havent noticed, the purses at Churchill, Keeneland, Turfway, Ellis and Kentucky Downs have skyrocketed the last few years--allowing tracks such as Oak Ridge and Cumberland to even exist.
That is also why Kentucky has "penny breakage", returning more cash back to the bettors.
Other states seem to be mentally slow in passing the same type of legislation.
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The "new" tracks are typically just replacements. Kentucky had Thunder Ridge and Bluegrass Downs. Ohio had Lebanon and Raceway. Virginia had Colonial.
Sure, purses at the "new" tracks are better, but that is just because of the supplement they receive. Handle and interest has only gone down. (OK, Bluegrass, maybe it is up from there! ngc3)
Hell, Illinois once had close to 600 cards of racing a year, between Quad City Downs, Fairmount, Balmoral, Maywood, Sportsmens, etc. California had Los and Cal and 4 times the racing opportunities. It is on one way street.
This is about my 40th year being a huge fan. Harness racing has provided so much for me, truly! I once thought I could not live without it. I lived for the next card. I loved it and made life moves based on track location. As crazy as that sounds, it is true.
Now, however, when I hear of a track closing, my first response is a great deal of sadness, but that quickly fades, as the sport I once loved is just not the same. I'm still here, basically every day, and will be until it or I end. But, with each passing year, it takes up a little less time in my life. Hell, I was with TRN back in the 90's and of course switched to Dish when RTN went there (up to 6 decoders, split, and so many recording devices). Tomorrow, I will only have the signal online, and, that is about all I need now. It just isn't the same.
The bold I highlighted sums it up well. 100%
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Hard to believe that Georgian Downs used to be mobbed, inside grandstand full, restaurant mobbed, outside mobbed 20 years ago. Place is a complete afterthought, short fields 8-9 races. They’ll be the next to close in Canada 100% and like another person posted, relatively soon. Smaller tracks like Clinton, Hanover etc have a strong community involvement so they’ll probably continue on. Rideau getting rid of the backstretch is a precursor to races going away there soon enough as well. Kawartha still gets decent crowds on Saturday nights. When these grassroots tracks close, it has a big effect on the industry.