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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Bret3Times on November 13, 2024, 02:50:15 PM
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I just received an email from Diamond Creek Farm. Karl will be standing for $20,000!
Any thoughts?
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Crazy. Might not even win 3YOTC of the Year
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Laughable.
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I’m sure that someone will post soon that the number isn’t really and it’s all smoke and mirrors but I can breed to Karl for $20k or I can breed to Tactical Landing for $15k. A step further I can breed to Karl for $20k or I can breed to Tactical Approach for $12k. Both lack Karl’s 2yo production but have similar records and earnings with much deeper pedigrees.
Feels like you have 3 like goods so why go to the most expensive
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I’m sure that someone will post soon that the number isn’t really and it’s all smoke and mirrors but I can breed to Karl for $20k or I can breed to Tactical Landing for $15k. A step further I can breed to Karl for $20k or I can breed to Tactical Approach for $12k. Both lack Karl’s 2yo production but have similar records and earnings with much deeper pedigrees.
Feels like you have 3 like goods so why go to the most expensive
Tactical Landing was bumped to $25K this year (2025). And his yearlings were down a good bit compared to others at Harrisburg. But your point isn't lost. Sig Sauer is $8K and certainly finished the year better than Karl (and is better bred); Tactical Approach certainly is better bred and a more substantial individual than Karl, and was vastly more consistent at 3. To my knowledge, TCI plans haven't been announced but I cannot see him being $20K and he was arguably (or maybe not arguably) as good as Karl at 2.
I honestly can't even wrap my head around them thinking he's worth that.
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Totally agree, You've got proven results, I'd rather go to Sig Sauer, if Iḿ going first yr stud. Better pedigree, far less$$$
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I agree. Sig Sauer will get more action at $8k than Karl for $20k if that is in fact true.
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All I can say is Adam better have a lot of his mares ready to breed because he isn't going to sell any shares or breeding's with a 20K stud fee. He's not a top 3 -3yo. Take away Hambo and you have nothing! He was bumpy at beginning of year with Yannick praying to hold him together. He miraculously wins the Hambo then can't function after that. Get's beat in KYSS by a mediocre at best Dame Good Time. This was one of Yimmies best PR jobs and patch jobs on a bad pedigreed lame pea hearted rat! If Adam considers Yimmy a friend I would hate to see his enemies!
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Karl will get a better group of mares than Sig Sauer therefore more likely to be a successful stallion. 20k is the number as was told to all of you weeks ago.
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Karl will get a better group of mares than Sig Sauer therefore more likely to be a successful stallion. 20k is the number as was told to all of you weeks ago.
Doesn't make it any less stupid.
And yes, good mares do generally help a sire but look at a horse like Greenshoe. Another high-dollar stud who got the best of best mares with sub-par production. Tall Dark Stranger is another example. I understand both these sires are young yet, but they have not impressed.
On the other hand, several sires have earned themselves better mares as a result of producing better than those aforementioned.
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history has proven that there really is no way to predict who will be a successful sire
a good book of mares early helps but no guarantee
a strong maternal family of the sire cant hurt but not necessary
if you look at chapter seven and sbsw they were not royally bred, both maternal families were mediocre at best
chapter seven did not get handed strong book of mares to start but succeeded none the less and is now one of the greatest of all time
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history has proven that there really is no way to predict who will be a successful sire
a good book of mares early helps but no guarantee
a strong maternal family of the sire cant hurt but not necessary
if you look at chapter seven and sbsw they were not royally bred, both maternal families were mediocre at best
chapter seven did not get handed strong book of mares to start but succeeded none the less and is now one of the greatest of all time
This is all absolutely correct, and I (nor anyone else) can really predict if Karl will be the next big sire. He very well may be. But his body of work does not support his stud fee. That is opinion, of course, but I'm very certain both on this forum and elsewhere, this opinion is shared by many.
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I agree. Sig Sauer will get more action at $8k than Karl for $20k if that is in fact true.
Speaking of guns. The county came by to document what Terry owned after his death Sunday. They don't waste any time. He asked if Terry had a gun and I got it for him. It was a Walther Creed with hollow points. The guy unloads it and leaves the bullets on his bed. They took the keys to his van but I did find out through Terry's ex-wife that the paperwork for the annulment was not completed in 2005 and that they are still married. I called the court in Orange County and sure enough, they are still married.
I called the administrator and gave her the number to his ex so I am sure the van will end up with me.
The good thing is His ex and I were good friends from 1999 until 2005 until she fucked him over and left him for an internet romance. Even more funny is I knew Terry since 1994 when I met him in a titty bar. I didn't see him for 4 years in between and I met his girlfriend in AA in 99 The funny thing is she went home and said, "I met this really nice guy from New Zealand and He replied, Is his name TIM", that was a LOL because she looked at him and said, "How do you know him"
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Who is Terry? Guns? Is this Karl-related?
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Who is Terry? Guns? Is this Karl-related?
No, I posted on another thread about finding my roommate and friend of over 30 years, dead on the floor Sunday, Sig Sauer as most know is a gun manufacturer so I brought up giving the gun to someone from the county
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i am not following
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Karl will get a better group of mares than Sig Sauer therefore more likely to be a successful stallion. 20k is the number as was told to all of you weeks ago.
There have been quite a few stallions that got the best mares and produced very little. I believe Prakas was one example many years ago. Does anyone here know of big-name stallions that "failed" in the breeding shed?
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Ralph Hanover, Supergill, Six Pack, Lazarus N, Giant Victory, Betting Line, Sebastian K, Niatross, Nihilator, Mack Lobell, etc.
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Ralph Hanover, Supergill, Six Pack, Lazarus N, Giant Victory, Betting Line, Sebastian K, Niatross, Nihilator, Mack Lobell, etc.
tmbz1 and the list goes on and on.
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Hmmmm six pack ? Might have one hambo favorite.s 2025...
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The horse had 23 starts with 18 wins, 2 seconds and a third, made $2.4 Million, won the Hambo and a Breeders Crown. He's by Tactical Landing ($25K stud fee). This is an elite, premium horse. Who know how he will turn out but he'll have no problem filling the first few book at $20k.
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tmbz1 and the list goes on and on.
Ralph Hanover won a lot of races but was never very impressive.
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The horse had 23 starts with 18 wins, 2 seconds and a third, made $2.4 Million, won the Hambo and a Breeders Crown. He's by Tactical Landing ($25K stud fee). This is an elite, premium horse. Who know how he will turn out but he'll have no problem filling the first few book at $20k.
May not be a popular opinion but I also find Tactical Landing too high fee-wise, and overhyped.
I know the better group of them sold in Lexington, but take a look at the averages for Harrisburg. Tactical Landing was lower than Greenshoe, which is mindboggling. Maybe it is just a blip, but taking into consideration they just raised his stud fee $10k (and lowered Greenshoe's $17K), it's not the best look.
I am not saying he's not a good sire - he is - but there's also a shit ton of them. Look where he falls on average earnings for 2 and 3yos YTD. Not in top 5 for either. And that is with a Hambo winner.
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Tactical Landing isn’t a high percentage sire but he does sire the home run horse. He has never gotten the best book of mares and probably never will. He has also done it without two of the best trotting stables. Ake and Melander don’t buy them. Not sure why must be some bad blood among the owners.
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All the Tacticals we have had we like early and then they fall apart when you try to really gear them up. Really hard to keep sound
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The horse had 23 starts with 18 wins, 2 seconds and a third, made $2.4 Million, won the Hambo and a Breeders Crown. He's by Tactical Landing ($25K stud fee). This is an elite, premium horse. Who know how he will turn out but he'll have no problem filling the first few book at $20k.
LOL - he has zero chance to fill a book at 20K
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http://stars.ustrotting.com/stallion.cfm?stallion_id=1009
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The horse had 23 starts with 18 wins, 2 seconds and a third, made $2.4 Million, won the Hambo and a Breeders Crown. He's by Tactical Landing ($25K stud fee). This is an elite, premium horse. Who know how he will turn out but he'll have no problem filling the first few book at $20k.
His page is below average for a top trotter. Plus he’s showed lameness throughout his career. Plus trains by Jimmy. No way I would pay 20k to breed
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As far as the syndication goes, they will not sell all the shares in the syndication. But they will announce that the shares are sold out. Shockingly, in year two, there will be seasons available. I wonder how that is going to happen. As far as his book, they will announce very quickly that his book is full and closed. However, call the farm, ask them if a season is available, and while they may ask questions about your mare, a season will be available. Alternatively, call a quality, respected bloodstock agent and he/she will have you a breeding in 24 hours.
As far as his stud fee, as I had said, this is what they had to do. Artificially set high. Remember, the opinion of people here doesn't count for $h!t. Nobody from here is a commercial breeder, and it's highly unlikely anyone from this sit is breeding a mare to Karl. This is not about backyard breeders or people who breed to race. It's a commercial breeders marketplace that makes a stallion. Commercial breeders are not looking at a fact sheet and be impressed that Karl won 18 of 23 with 2 seconds and a third. They are not going to care that he won $1m in back to back seasons. Commercial breeders have experts working for them and they know what they saw on the track. They saw what Karl did on the track----a visually very dominant 2yo who was heads and shoulders above the entire class, except for one other colt, and more importantly, they saw what he did and how he did it as a 3yo, and how he regressed throughout the year and what happened when the rest of a fair at best crop grew up a bit, got better, and caught up to Karl.
I take nothing away from what he's accomplished as a 2yo, but as a 3yo, no offense, he looked like just a horse. He got lucky winning the Hambo. He wasn't the best colt in that race. He got beat by just a horse after that. In the KY Futurity he showed what he is relative to the rest of the field/crop. Take the Hambo away and you're looking at what? What he did on the track and how he did it, and the rest of the crop. Stats don't make stallions. Neither does propaganda. They are going to protect him as much as they can, promote him, give quiet discounts where they can, breed a lot of their own, make deals, ---and they are going to hope he has some success.
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It's amazing that so many people criticize gingras for winning races on the front end but as soon as he wins a big one from the off the pace, it was a "lucky" win
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"They are going to protect him as much as they can, promote him, give quiet discounts where they can, breed a lot of their own, make deals, ---and they are going to hope he has some success."
I think it's reasonable to expect that the owners of any valuable stud would do what the owners of Karl have done. Why is this seen as a negative? Karl had major problems as a 3yo but still won the Hambo, and I thought he was very game at the finish. He was 100% not right after that and should have been retired then because he showed he wasn't at his best and scoped sick twice. They did the same thing with Lazarus at his last start; he was sick the start before but they raced him shortly after-with disastrous result. Karl had a beautiful gait-great manners-conformation and a willingness to win and explosive acceleration--he will be a successful stallion IMHO.
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It's amazing that so many people criticize gingras for winning races on the front end but as soon as he wins a big one from the off the pace, it was a "lucky" win
Better “lucky” than good?? Let’s see how horseplop chimes in on this!!
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By saying it was a "lucky" win means more that he wasn't the best horse on that given, day but got the trip and won.
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I find it curious that Nancy, Jimmy and Christina sold all there % of the horse and didn't retain anything. If he's so great why not keep some?
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It's amazing that so many people criticize gingras for winning races on the front end but as soon as he wins a big one from the off the pace, it was a "lucky" win
LOL. Yeah, that's the reason why it was lucky. Good one. LOL.
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"They are going to protect him as much as they can, promote him, give quiet discounts where they can, breed a lot of their own, make deals, ---and they are going to hope he has some success."
I think it's reasonable to expect that the owners of any valuable stud would do what the owners of Karl have done. Why is this seen as a negative? Karl had major problems as a 3yo but still won the Hambo, and I thought he was very game at the finish. He was 100% not right after that and should have been retired then because he showed he wasn't at his best and scoped sick twice. They did the same thing with Lazarus at his last start; he was sick the start before but they raced him shortly after-with disastrous result. Karl had a beautiful gait-great manners-conformation and a willingness to win and explosive acceleration--he will be a successful stallion IMHO.
Actually, if you have a quality stallion, at the right price, and you didn't overpay---then he doesn't need to be protected, you don't need to give out deals, etc. The stud fee at $20k tells you all you need to know. Setting it at 20 is not a negative. I said it would be an aggressive approach, but probably the best shot at succeeding. With a quality stallion---no deals, no discounts, no pooled shares or seasons, book legit full and closed, etc. Do you think the owners or the farm had to protect SBSW? LOL.
As far as game winning the Hambo, we will simply not just disagree, but agree that we are talking about bowling balls and the planet earth, LO. On the scoped sick twice, unless you are the vet, worked for the vet, or were there, I say this is nothing but innuendo and posturing. They were doing damage control after he trained well and raced poor. Bled, OK, he ended up on Lasix, but even that, is not 100%. We will see in year two how the economics play out.
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By saying it was a "lucky" win means more that he wasn't the best horse on that given, day but got the trip and won.
Agreed. As I said, he was not the best horse in that race that day. His trip, which was perfect, certainly contributed to the win, and if he didn't get that trip, he doesn't win. JMHO, and that with $5 gets you a fancy drink at Starbucks. LOL.
I will say this, I do buy stallion shares, when I see something I like, want, etc. I didn't call the farm to ask how much a share was for Karl.
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Let me get this straight. The trip that the horse got was the lucky part. Gingras just absolutely can do not right to so many people. There was no shot that Yannick strategized and executed that trip, right? Why not say Karl won the race cause of a great trip? Why say he was lucky? My educated guess is cause gingras pisses a lot of people off for ancillary reasons.
There's a difference between winning with a bad trip sure but there's also a difference between losing with a great trip and winning with a great trip.
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This is an exercise in semantics. My thoughts and observations had zero to do with YG. I like him. I may not use him a lot, or feel he's a well-rounded, strategic driver, but I like him. I know him since before he came to the US. Nothing personal and nothing against him. Karl did win the race because of a great trip---the perfect trip, the best trip any horse in that race got---and because of that trip, and the rest of the field, Karl was "lucky" to have won that race. That's my take.
But more important, the check cleared and his name goes on the trophy! LOL. His place is history is secure. But people who know, know what they saw on the track, and that will go along with him into his stallion career.
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Luck didn't have anything to do with that win. He won because the driver executed a great trip with a capable horse who wasnt 100% sharp but was game late in the mile. That isn't luck and that is my take.
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Luck didn't have anything to do with that win. He won because the driver executed a great trip with a capable horse who wasnt 100% sharp but was game late in the mile. That isn't luck and that is my take.
tmbz1 Agree-everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Karl won because he was the best horse-sure he got a great trip but the pace was fast early so Yannick decided to pull back like he had done before-Karl loved to run down his opposition and the fact is the last 50 yards he surged and no horse was going faster than Karl- he won going away--another 50 yards he wins by 2-3L. Yannick nearly fell out of the bike 100 meters from home trying to pull out the ear plugs--that cost him ground-then he straightened him up really asked him for the first time and whoosh-it was over.
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tmbz1 Agree-everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Karl won because he was the best horse-sure he got a great trip but the pace was fast early so Yannick decided to pull back like he had done before-Karl loved to run down his opposition and the fact is the last 50 yards he surged and no horse was going faster than Karl- he won going away--another 50 yards he wins by 2-3L. Yannick nearly fell out of the bike 100 meters from home trying to pull out the ear plugs--that cost him ground-then he straightened him up really asked him for the first time and whoosh-it was over.
You're right that he was the best horse that day. And, he was the best horse a lot of days, and some of those days he prevailed, and some he didn't.
I truly thought he was going to be a superstar at 3 and he disappointed. I've not seen Karl do anything that required more than a decent trip and a lot of talent (and kudos to Gingras for putting him in that position as much as he could). He caught a lot of hype, and Diamond Creek is standing him in Kentucky, so he likely will fill a book.
TCI broke at the start of a million dollar race, spotted the field, and still won. I am not an enormous fan of that horse either, but that was a HUGE mile.
My opinion is there are numerous other trotting sires that are much better choices than Karl.
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To call TCI mile “HUGE” against a few nice fillies and very average colts is bit much. Sig Sauer had 15 lifetime starts never won anything other than NJSS as a two year old. Karl was the best two year old in the group and won multiple GC races. NONE of these raced ever on half mile track. There’s a reason why TCI is standing in OH and SS is standing for 8k in PA. Karl without a doubt will get a better book of mares than the other two combined. Whether he turns into a top sire nobody knows but he has the best chance and credentials of the three.
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To call TCI mile “HUGE” against a few nice fillies and very average colts is bit much. Sig Sauer had 15 lifetime starts never won anything other than NJSS as a two year old. Karl was the best two year old in the group and won multiple GC races. NONE of these raced ever on half mile track. There’s a reason why TCI is standing in OH and SS is standing for 8k in PA. Karl without a doubt will get a better book of mares than the other two combined. Whether he turns into a top sire nobody knows but he has the best chance and credentials of the three.
One thing you are overlooking is that of these three both Karl and Sig Sauer are both limited in the mares they can breed to because both are by Muscle Hill (Sig a son of Muscle Hill and Karl a grandson). And a lot of Chapter 7 and Walner mares have already been bred to Muscle Hill line stallions so the opportunities there will be limited as well.
On the other hand, TCI can be bred to any mare sired either by Muscle Hill or Chapter 7/Walner so he should be in demand just because of that.
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Totally agree but being in OH will hurt his chances of getting the TOP mares.
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YG’s strategy was forced by having the rail and the weather. No history tells us that in a big race with the favorite he wouldn’t have went to the front, either off the gate or a 1/4 pole remove, and set unreasonable fractions.
Also if Billy had half a brain he would have slow played his first over, waited on the cover to catch up and stuffed Karl on the rail.
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To call TCI mile “HUGE” against a few nice fillies and very average colts is bit much. Sig Sauer had 15 lifetime starts never won anything other than NJSS as a two year old. Karl was the best two year old in the group and won multiple GC races. NONE of these raced ever on half mile track. There’s a reason why TCI is standing in OH and SS is standing for 8k in PA. Karl without a doubt will get a better book of mares than the other two combined. Whether he turns into a top sire nobody knows but he has the best chance and credentials of the three.
I disagree on TCI's mile..remember he spotted the gate running. I understand it wasn't the best of the best - that's sort of the problem with that race - but 2yos don't routinely do what he did that night.
Karl will get his mares, I understand that too. However, if I had $20k to spend on a stud fee, it wouldn't be to him. Just my opinion.
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Walner, Chap 7 and MH are all over 20k and books are already full and closed. If you are breeding to sell Karl’s first corp will better than any other sire. Your choices are really limited to sell a high priced foal.
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Walner, Chap 7 and MH are all over 20k and books are already full and closed. If you are breeding to sell Karl’s first corp will better than any other sire. Your choices are really limited to sell a high priced foal.
You are not wrong. If the Gimpanzees come forward he has that ability too. Buyers certainly were not afraid of his yearlings this year.
You will of course have the odd 6-figures from the "lesser" sires, but those are your heavy hitters to do well as a seller.
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Karl will be fine as long as you can race on a mile track only