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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Sweet Louis on October 17, 2024, 11:43:40 PM

Title: Serious breeding question
Post by: Sweet Louis on October 17, 2024, 11:43:40 PM
I learned how to read a program at 10..I'm 50 now so I've been around this sport a long time....now yes I'm quite aware of breeding but what makes a horse like Sweet Lou produce so many good filly offspring but not so much on the colt side..is It a luck of the draw or is there really a factor here.
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: RANDOLPH POKER on October 18, 2024, 12:29:23 AM
8 of his 10 richest, and 9 of his 10 fastest, are males.

He does seem to have a bunch of good fillies this year....but some decent colts too.

6 $100K winning 2YOs this year - 3 males

He does have a Horse of the Year and a few Jug Winners....not too shabby...



http://stars.ustrotting.com/stallion.cfm?stallion_id=773





Stallion | Sire of the Stallion | Dam of the Stallion | Crosses of Gold | Yearling Sales Results | Hypothetical Matings
Top Performers: Current Year | Prior Year | All Time
SWEET LOU
P, 2,1:49.0s; 3,1:47.4s; 5,1:47.0f ($ 3,478,894)
Bay Horse.   Foaled 2009.
SWEET LOU's All Time Leading Foals by Earnings   To purchase the complete Pathway report, click here
Foal Name   Foal
Year   Sex   Record   Life-to-Date
Earnings   Dam   Last
Raced
CONFEDERATE   2020   H   P, 3 1:46.1m   $2,077,554   GEOTHERMAL   *2023
WARRAWEE UBEAUT   2016   M   P, 2 1:48.3m   $1,849,213   GREAT MEMORIES   2021
IT'S MY SHOW   2020   G   P, 3 1:46.4m   $1,506,502   PUT ON A SHOW   2024
HELLABALOU   2018   H   P, 6 1:48.3f   $1,474,071   MAGESTIC BLUE CHIP   2024
LOU'S PEARLMAN   2018   H   P, 3 1:47.4m   $1,262,271   LUCY'S PEARL   2023
MY GIRL EJ   2021   M   P, 3 1:48.1m   $1,131,560   LUCY'S PEARL   2024
FOUREVER BOY   2019   H   P, 4 1:48.2f   $1,039,442   MACHAROUNDTHECLOC K   2024
SPIRIT OF STLOUIS N   2016   G   P, 8 Q1:52.1m   $1,012,857   SPIRIT OF ART   2024
DANCIN LOU   2016   H   P, 4 1:47.2m   $991,441   DANCEWITHTHEBEST   2020
NO LOU ZING   2017   G   P, 5 1:49.0s   $931,532   TERRORONTHEBEACH   2024

SWEET LOU's All Time Leading Foals by Record   To purchase the complete Pathway report, click here
Foal Name   Foal
Year   Sex   Record   Life-to-Date
Earnings   Dam   Last
Raced
CONFEDERATE   2020   H   P, 3 1:46.1m   $2,077,554   GEOTHERMAL   *2023
IT'S MY SHOW   2020   G   P, 3 1:46.4m   $1,506,502   PUT ON A SHOW   2024
DANCIN LOU   2016   H   P, 4 1:47.2m   $991,441   DANCEWITHTHEBEST   2020
FORTIFY   2017   G   P, 3 1:47.3s   $793,401   CAN'T STOP ME NOW   2024
LOU'S PEARLMAN   2018   H   P, 3 1:47.4m   $1,262,271   LUCY'S PEARL   2023
ADMIRAL HILL   2020   G   P, 4 1:48.0f   $550,778   LAURA HILL   2024
CRIMSON AND CHROME   2016   G   P, 4 1:48.0m   $317,240   MCSAUNA   2022
OAKWOOD ARDAN IR   2019   G   P, 5 1:48.0m   $217,427   TREND SETTER   2024
MY GIRL EJ   2021   M   P, 3 1:48.1m   $1,131,560   LUCY'S PEARL   2024
CANNIBAL   2020   H   P, 3 1:48.1m   $785,040   NO MORE LOSSES   *2023
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: RANDOLPH POKER on October 18, 2024, 12:30:25 AM
Last year his colts averaged $74,000 and fillies averaged $79,000
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: SDST2009 on October 18, 2024, 06:11:05 PM
Irrespective of Sweet Lou (since he actually seems to be a pretty even producer) there definitely are some sires who way overproduce colts versus fillies, or vice versa. A long time ago I had heard that sires with strong female lines would produce better filiies than colts, but I can't say that always seems true.

Maybe someone smarter than I can weigh in.
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: chester on October 18, 2024, 09:33:36 PM
Sweet lou being by Yankee cruiser is a huge out cross
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Call Sign Merlin on October 18, 2024, 09:50:36 PM
I know that people way smarter than me will disagree - but I think it all is a crapshoot especially because most breeders don’t employ a genetic PhD
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: rainman2 on October 18, 2024, 10:22:02 PM
Irrespective of Sweet Lou (since he actually seems to be a pretty even producer) there definitely are some sires who way overproduce colts versus fillies, or vice versa. A long time ago I had heard that sires with strong female lines would produce better filiies than colts, but I can't say that always seems true.

Maybe someone smarter than I can weigh in.

Wind the clock back many years.  Big Towner was a great outcross.  People openly laughed at Simpson Sr. when he did this.  Big Towner produced better on the mares side.  Big Towner protege were more physically sound, lasted longer on the track and had better racing mentality (had a desire to try harder in races)!
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Call Sign Merlin on October 18, 2024, 10:32:11 PM
Said this in another thread but the trotting side could really use an outcross.    Vast majority of commercial sires are Chapter Seven or Muscle Hill. 
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Chips N Salsa on October 19, 2024, 11:20:59 AM
Lou has good maternal breeding.  Sweet Future has Falcon Seelster blood which is pure speed.  On the top side you have artplace and abercrombie which throw a very durable and rugged type horse.  You combine that with maternal speed and you get a horse like lou and now he's passing it along to his foals.  his first couple of crops didn't hit well but now with the better mares and finding out what type of blood he needs they have become great.

I think he will dominate for some time.  I don't think confederate will make a stud compared the price and hype.  TDS is toast and will get exported before long.  You basically have what's left of Papi Rob who is highly under rated, Captain, Lou and Down By the Seaside.

Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Artsplace1990 on October 19, 2024, 09:22:48 PM
I'm curious to see hom Cummasumladdea oes here in Ohio
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Call Sign Merlin on October 19, 2024, 09:35:34 PM
I'm curious to see hom Cummasumladdea oes here in Ohio

Being at Midland will help but lots of competition for mares - Downbytheseaside, Racing Hill, Catch the Fire, Lou’s Pearlman, Monte Miki, Rockyroad Hanover, Pebble Beach. Ohio is just so overbred
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: rainman2 on October 21, 2024, 12:04:58 AM
Being at Midland will help but lots of competition for mares - Downbytheseaside, Racing Hill, Catch the Fire, Lou’s Pearlman, Monte Miki, Rockyroad Hanover, Pebble Beach. Ohio is just so overbred

What about Indiana while we are on the subject?  Not as many 'studly' choices where I believe we see low/mid-level claimers which I believe are Indiana bred only! 
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Chips N Salsa on October 21, 2024, 12:39:36 AM
What about Indiana while we are on the subject?  Not as many 'studly' choices where I believe we see low/mid-level claimers which I believe are Indiana bred only!

Indiana is worst state in the world financially to stand a stud - Bar None
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: rainman2 on October 21, 2024, 02:23:24 AM
Indiana is worst state in the world financially to stand a stud - Bar None

are there any good 'studs' there?
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Lance on October 21, 2024, 07:52:03 AM
are there any good 'studs' there?

There are at least two.
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Chips N Salsa on October 21, 2024, 08:57:29 AM
are there any good 'studs' there?

Has nothing to do with good or bad studs it has to do with getting paid and getting screwed.   You have amish that breed 10-15 mares to your stud then only ask for 1 or 2 mating certs so they only pay for one or two breedings.  You get screwed out of 10-12 breedings and they get free horses!
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Trottin kid on October 21, 2024, 10:25:21 AM
Not sure where your coming from .... Each mare gets their separate mating certificate so explain how your getting screwed out of breedings?
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Chips N Salsa on October 21, 2024, 11:53:58 AM
Simple - Man comes and breeds 10 mares and I have to account for 10 certs.  I can only issue 120 certs a yr.  If same man only wants 2 certs after mares foal then I just lost 8 fees because he doesn't want the certs.  I can't over breed say 140 mares because if they all come to me and want certs then I have a HUGE legal issue because I can only issue 120 certs.  It's a big problem in Indiana because Amish breed to get road horses and don't need the certs.  So they breed 10 wait till March of 2yo year then pick the best two and get certs and the other 8 they sell as road horses.  Understand?
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Trottin kid on October 21, 2024, 12:26:05 PM
Pretty sure that's never happened to you in Indiana .... Unless your Amish ? They seem to breed their road mares to their own studs (Mr cantab,Guccio,Newtown choclatier...
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Grandstand Handicapper on October 21, 2024, 02:58:27 PM
Pretty sure that's never happened to you in Indiana .... Unless your Amish ? They seem to breed their road mares to their own studs (Mr cantab,Guccio,Newtown choclatier...

It's never happened to him as the owner of a mare because he wouldn't be in a position to prove this. If he was, he would have the proof and it would documented and verified. It's also never happened to him as the owner of a stallion, or else he has zero idea how to manage a stallion, the mares that were bred to that stallion, his operation, and his stallion management skills do not exist. Or, if he is the owner of a mare and he's actually done this, then he, one, shared with us how he defrauds people and steals their money, and two, just verified that he's a criminal.
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Trottin kid on October 21, 2024, 03:53:53 PM
Exactly the angle I was coming from ... We can all smell that load of bs 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Chips N Salsa on October 21, 2024, 05:48:46 PM
Go look at breeding reports.  Top five trotting and pacing studs in Indiana all get full books but only get about 50% registered foals each yr.  Now normal stallions will have 80% rates and very few have even higher.  I guess every stallion in Indiana has below average semen?
Title: Re: Serious breeding question
Post by: Trottin kid on October 21, 2024, 08:14:08 PM
Let's be honest here.  There aren't 5 stallions(pace or trot)  in Indiana getting full books ...  show me 5 stallions in the US that get full books and 80% foal rate ... That number is going to be around 65% at the best ...
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