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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Grandstand Handicapper on October 08, 2024, 03:10:17 PM
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I decided to make my list. Top 10. Not ranked. Just 10 names. No excuses, no posturing, no BS. LOL.
Varenne
Ourasi
Un De Mai
Mack Lobell
Moni Maker
Muscle Hill
Speedy Scot
Roquepine
Walner
Self Possessed
Give me your 10 names. Thanks.
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I've been around forever and have heard of most of the ones on your list. Walner is an interesting choice for the list since his career was so brief. Are you basing it on future potential. Very difficult to name the tops of all time because some are foreign horses I've never seen run, and different eras have different top ones. Fresh Yankee was a great trotter in his day, his career earnings were 1.3 million which is huge for back them and he was named the season or champion trotter 7 years in a row. I'm more into pacer than trotters except when I'm betting!
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Varenne
Mack Lobell
Peace Corps
Moni Maker
Muscle Hill
Ourasi
Greyhound
Nevele Pride
Atlanta
Super Bowl
No particular order..
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Saw Fresh Yankee race at Hollywood Park was a great horse back then and one of the best ever.
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I've been around forever and have heard of most of the ones on your list. Walner is an interesting choice for the list since his career was so brief. Are you basing it on future potential. Very difficult to name the tops of all time because some are foreign horses I've never seen run, and different eras have different top ones. Fresh Yankee was a great trotter in his day, his career earnings were 1.3 million which is huge for back them and he was named the season or champion trotter 7 years in a row. I'm more into pacer than trotters except when I'm betting!
Fresh Yankee was a mare
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I've been around forever and have heard of most of the ones on your list. Walner is an interesting choice for the list since his career was so brief. Are you basing it on future potential. Very difficult to name the tops of all time because some are foreign horses I've never seen run, and different eras have different top ones. Fresh Yankee was a great trotter in his day, his career earnings were 1.3 million which is huge for back them and he was named the season or champion trotter 7 years in a row. I'm more into pacer than trotters except when I'm betting!
I wasn't going to get into this, but what the hell, I have some time to kill, LOL. I wasn't going to get into it, because with him I debated, and I wasn't as definitive. Regardless, I know, I kind of debated with Walner and while he certainly did not have a GOAT career so to speak----I added him because my list is GOAT I have seen, and feel each horse is truly one of the GOAT---talent-wise, ability-wise, etc., that I judge as being truly a great horse. So with Walner, here was some of my thinking. First, from the very first time I saw him, this horse just screamed greatness to me. To me, that played out because every single time I saw him race, he was simply just great. He was just so athletic, just a pure, tremendous athlete. I saw him as a yearling and really liked him, a lot. Not being a yearling buyer, and especially a trotter, I wasn't a buyer, but he was pure athlete. He just stood out. Long legged, strong, built, just looked like a very serious colt. He brought $90k as a yearling, and I think the Chapter Seven average that year was something like $50k.
He was nothing short of phenomenal at 2. He looked like a truly great horse. Yes, he had a great campaign, as many horses do, like Karl did as a 2yo----but with Walner, he looked like a great horse, not just a horse who was ahead of the rest of the class and winning (easy), but far more important, WHAT he was doing, and HOW he was doing it. So when I watched Walner as a 2yo, and I watched Karl, I saw two completely different horses, situations, and potential futures. Night and day, night and month. Walner came back at 3 and potential and hypothetical is nothing more than conjecture, he had grown up, filled out, grew, but based upon his brief appearances, he looked like he was ready to take on---and dominate---the entire crop. He came back at 3 and he was smooth, fluid, an effortless gait and he won right out of the gate in 50 and 2! He made it look easy, like he wasn't even going that fast. Yes, conjecture, but what I saw, boy, I mean, he won the Dancer Memorial at the Big M in 50 and 2 like right out of the box. Was he not going to be 1-5 or maybe even 1-9 to win the Hambo? Yes, conjecture. But he was moving forward, getting better, stronger, etc.----and Karl? He was doing the soft-shoe on eggshells.
So his career was over, but his greatness has certainly played out in his success as a sire. He wasn't a million dollar yearling who was a great horse and had the permission to succeed as a stallion. He was a well-bred horse, a $90k yearling, who looked very good, became a great horse, and had a career-ending injury, and went on to prove his greatness as a stallion. Side note, as a stallion, he's an outcross, so he opened up the doors to a lot of possible mares. When Dave Reid was putting together the syndication for Walner, commercial breeders were lining up to buy shares, get mares on the list, etc. He could have went overseas, but the interest and support here was so strong he stayed in the US. Every major breeder wanted shares, and wanted to breed top mares to him.
Anyway, that's why he is on my list. He is one of the GOAT I've seen. That's my story and I am sticking with it. LOL. Thanks.
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Fresh Yankee was a great horse.
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Varenne
Mack Lobell
Peace Corps
Moni Maker
Muscle Hill
Un De Mai
CR Kay Suzie
Ourasi
Sebastian K
Bold Eagle
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Varenne
Mack Lobell
Peace Corps
Moni Maker
Muscle Hill
Un De Mai
CR Kay Suzie
Ourasi
Sebastian K
Bold Eagle
Our first 5 are the same then we kind of deviate from each other.. I loved Susie.. just outside my top 10. I can't argue with any of the ones that you have that I dont
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Fresh Yankee was a mare
Splitting hairs, thinks I. I loved Fresh Yankee, a rather small mare that raced her heart out every time kinda' like Rambling Willie, a pacer. I also liked Un De Mai. Both trotters won the International Trot. Throw the picks in a bag and pull one out and you can's go wrong.
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So many trotters that were significant in their time. Here's some more that haven't been mentioned yet
Windsong's Legacy ... Without him no Chapter 7 and Walner
Lady Suffolk ... The Old Grey Mare
Flora Temple
Ideal Du Gazeau
Speedy Scot
Speedy Crown
San Pail
Nuncio
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Splitting hairs, thinks I. I loved Fresh Yankee, a rather small mare that raced her heart out every time kinda' like Rambling Willie, a pacer. I also liked Un De Mai. Won the International Trot. Throw the picks in a bag and pull one out and you can's go wrong.
I wouldn't mention her in the same breath as Rambling Willie but I know what you mean. She was in the elite league of racing winning here and in Europe.
From Harness Hall of Fame :Fresh Yankee was the season or world champion for seven consecutive years and retired as the leading money winning American Standardbred of all time.
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Our first 5 are the same then we kind of deviate from each other.. I loved Susie.. just outside my top 10. I can't argue with any of the ones that you have that I dont
I like CR better than Atlanta...but my opinion. There are so many good ones that you can't separate. A lot of great names by you & others.
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So many trotters that were significant in their time. Here's some more that haven't been mentioned yet
Windsong's Legacy ... Without him no Chapter 7 and Walner
Lady Suffolk ... The Old Grey Mare
Flora Temple
Ideal Du Gazeau
Speedy Scot
Speedy Crown
San Pail
Nuncio
It almost pained me to leave Ideal du Gazeau off my list.
The San Pail discussion is one I've had many times before, especially with my friends north of the border, LOL. Any GOAT, top ten, etc. type of list or discussion----you can't help but get into these generational discussions. Now you have to start weighing different variables and factors and so on. Aside from judging horseflesh and what I have seen on the track, you start looking at campaigns, careers, individual performances, and so on. Not just the victory in the one big dance. Many people defend their pick with the big dance victory. They are going to look at Karl, and say, "He won the Hambo!" OK, he did. That doesn't make him one of the GOAT. Is Cool Papa Bell one of the GOAT. Forbidden Trade? Royalty For Life? Broad Bahn? Yankee Paco? Shiaway St. Pat? Then, they look at other, sometimes obscure stats or facts, all in support of some GOAT argument, like Karl.
Many Canadians say that San Pail is one of the GOAT. I get it. I am taking absolutely nothing away from San Pail. He was truly a great trotter. No argument. He performed at the highest level, at the top of the game, for many years, in Canada, and in NA when he won the BC. He won three Maple Leaf Trots! Absolutely a great horse. Personally, I think he might be the greatest aged trotter in North America IN THIS GENERATION, MODERN DAY kind of thing. Great horse! But I just couldn't get him on my top 10 GOAT list. I can see others picking him, and I don't take offense to that. I respect it. I may disagree, like many will with me, but I still respect it.
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Varenne
Mack Lobell
Peace Corps
Moni Maker
Muscle Hill
Ourasi
Greyhound
Nevele Pride
Atlanta
Super Bowl
No particular order..
A lot of great names there! Thanks for posting your list!
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Varenne
Mack Lobell
Peace Corps
Moni Maker
Muscle Hill
Un De Mai
CR Kay Suzie
Ourasi
Sebastian K
Bold Eagle
A lot of great names there too! I thought long and hard about Bold Eagle. Thanks for posting your list!
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Leaving Jiggy Jog off the list just shows your lack of knowledge
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Muscle hill
Cr kay Suzie
Peaceful way
Continental victory
Moni makers
Mack lobell
Pine chip
Walner
Deweycheatemnhowe
Snow White
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A lot of great names there! Thanks for posting your list!
tmbz1 I've got no problem with Walner being on your list.. it's just a shame,so much potential. I'm glad purple sheet picks mentioned Pine Chip. He almost cracked my top 10 and Dewey as well.
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Greyhound
Ourasi
Mack
Nevele Pride
Muscle Hill
Roquepine
Peace Corps
Fresh Yankee
Jiggy Jog
Red Rhone
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tmbz1 I've got no problem with Walner being on your list.. it's just a shame,so much potential. I'm glad purple sheet picks mentioned Pine Chip. He almost cracked my top 10 and Dewey as well.
tmbz1
I think Pine Chip and Dewey would not be shockers on people's lists. No way.
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Ideal Du Gazeau.
Horse could beat the best parked the mile.
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And, he did. Many times. 3 Internationals and one like you say, never seeing the wood and draw off.
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You can add Jiggy Jog to every list. She dominates!!!!! and will go down as one of the best
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Jiggy Jog is the best trotter in the World! Going to make over a million this year with only 7-8 starts.
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Steve Stewart has talked about racing her for "many more" years. I hope so! I really enjoy watching her. Sometimes you just find a horse that you look forward to and thoroughly enjoy watching race, for whatever reason----gait, heart, will to win, whatever.
I guess by the end of this year she'll have what, 7 or 8 starts, and of course that should be 7 or 8 wins, LOL. I realize they were picking their spots and campaigning her with a very focused eye on the International (which she finished 2nd in last year), and of course the BC (which she won as a 3yo AND again as a 4yo)----which are the two biggest paydays. I was a bit perplexed with Sarah's comments about being careful, not able to give her more time off, etc. Maybe it's posturing, LOL. Anyway, this BC will be BC number three! I would love to see her race like this for a couple more years. If she does, she will absolutely be on my GOAT list. She is truly amazing to watch.
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The only reason jiggy jog was left off my list is because her career is still in progress. She is phenomenal. And as Grandstand said if she continues on this trend this year and next absolutely she will be top 10. If she could win the bc this year and next she would join Peace Corps as a 4 time bc winner
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The only reason jiggy jog was left off my list is because her career is still in progress. She is phenomenal. And as Grandstand said if she continues on this trend this year and next absolutely she will be top 10. If she could win the bc this year and next she would join Peace Corps as a 4 time bc winner
tmbz1
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No mention of Grades Singing out there, she was one of the all time greats on both sides of the Atlantic.. tough as nails.!!
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Greyhound
Ourasi
Mack
Nevele Pride
Muscle Hill
Roquepine
Peace Corps
Fresh Yankee
Jiggy Jog
Red Rhone
Thank you for mentioning Nevele Pride.
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Hard to pick a horse like Greyhound who ran back in the 1930's, who none of us saw run. Unlike today when horses retire early, the trotters who raced year after year and were great belong somewhere on the list.
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Thank you for mentioning Nevele Pride.
Was on my list as well. Harness horse of the year for 3 straight years.
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I think we can all make a solid argument for 30 or so trotters that deserve to be in the top 10 of all time.
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If ya through Pine Chip in ya gotta put American Winner in too. The dam of American Winner is a 1/2 sister to Mack Lobell. American Winner is the sire of the dam of Muscle Hill, Yankee Blondie. He was a war horse, raced on all sizes of track and beat Pine Chip a number of times including the Hambo.
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I will have to give some thought to this but one initial thought..if we are going to put Windsong's Legacy on as a one of the greatest based on production..then you nearly have to include Hambletonian himself, and Valley Victory. But if we are talking solely about on-track performance, I think all three get left off.
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No mention of Grades Singing out there, she was one of the all time greats on both sides of the Atlantic.. tough as nails.!!
I saw Grades Singing beat a group of male pacers at YR many years ago in a special mixed gait race.
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And, he did. Many times. 3 Internationals and one like you say, never seeing the wood and draw off.
What makes it even more impressive Ideal Du Gazeau was parked 1 1/2 miles and jogged.
The International trot was one and a half miles.
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The greatest cheap Trotter I ever saw was Incredible K, I think he reeled off like 14 wins in a row.
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Was on my list as well. Harness horse of the year for 3 straight years.
I missed it.
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what about sjs caviar was drove like poop and still showed up
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tmbz1 I've got no problem with Walner being on your list.. it's just a shame,so much potential. I'm glad purple sheet picks mentioned Pine Chip. He almost cracked my top 10 and Dewey as well.
Walner did have a great deal of potential. Unlimited perhaps. Even if they pushed him, that injury would have hampered his potential. Who knows, he still may have had enough to dominate that class. He trained like an absolute monster right before the Dancer. Everyone who saw him was excited on seeing him start his 3yo campaign.
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Greyhound
Ourasi
Mack
Nevele Pride
Muscle Hill
Roquepine
Peace Corps
Fresh Yankee
Jiggy Jog
Red Rhone
Red Rhone, I remember him.....what a tough horse he was. He was something like a $5k horse or something. Great story. I remember a local handicapper at him at 1-9 in the American National at Sportsman's Park. He finished second in the BC to Delray Lobell that year, with Mack Lobell finishing 3rd.
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No mention of Grades Singing out there, she was one of the all time greats on both sides of the Atlantic.. tough as nails.!!
I posted about her at length on the other "Karl/GOAT" thread. Yes, she beat pacers at YR! LOL. A great mare.
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The greatest cheap Trotter I ever saw was Incredible K, I think he reeled off like 14 wins in a row.
How about Ray Ireland's trotter Mr. Faber. If he didn't break and Ireland eventually cured that he won all the invitational trots in New England. Not fast but tough as nails.
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No mention of Grades Singing out there, she was one of the all time greats on both sides of the Atlantic.. tough as nails.!!
I saw Grades Singing beat a group of male pacers at YR many years ago in a special mixed gait race.
How about this one.....Grades Singing!
When she retired only Peace Corps had won more money and Grades Singing didn't have any big money races as a 2yo. Over the span of her career, she went on to win three Breeders Crowns. Three! And seven world records! Do you think we should let Karl race in one BC first? Nah, even if he wins, he's not on any respectable person's GOAT list.
Now, ready for this.....as a 4yo.....at Yonkers.....SHE BEAT PACERS! Anyone remember this? Now, if you don't believe this, before you claim it isn't true.....like George Berkner training Goalie Jeff.....you might want to check this out.....unless you have an aversion to being wrong.
She won 20 of 25 at three, including multiple NYSS, about ten Quebec Circuit Stakes, and the CTA Championship. At four, she raced 41 times, finishing first-second 34 times, winning the Maple Leaf Trot, the American Trotting Classic, the World Cup (with a world record) and the Breeders Crown. As a 5yo, she was sold overseas, and in her overseas campaign spanned several years where she won the Elitlopp, the Premio Gaetano Turilli, the Gran Premio della Lotteria, and the Prize of Nations, the Vermo Cup and the Finlandia, and the the Prijs de Giganten, which was the most prestigious race in Holland. She came back to Canada, won another Breeders Crown, and by the time she retired she had 148 starts in nine countries.
Sorry, I forgot this thread was about Karl being one of the greatest of all time.
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Greyhound THATS FOR SURE! tmbz1 tmbz1 tmbz1
Speedy Scot was speedy but not dependable!
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Ideal Du Gazeau.
Horse could beat the best parked the mile.
The best trotter I have ever seen. Mack and Peace Corps follow.
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can you imagine what Deweycheatemandho w would have accomplished with a top catch driver??
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Dewy was undefeated as a 2 year old. Strung together 17 straight wins and a lifetime record of 22 wins in 25 starts. He was the second highest winning trotter of all time .
Hea was the greatest earning 2 year old colt trotter, just shy of a million and one of only two $2 million dollar earners as a 3 year old.
What more could a catch driver done?
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Dewy was undefeated as a 2 year old. Strung together 17 straight wins and a lifetime record of 22 wins in 25 starts. He was the second highest winning trotter of all time .
Hea was the greatest earning 2 year old colt trotter, just shy of a million and one of only two $2 million dollar earners as a 3 year old.
What more could a catch driver done?
LOL. Great points.