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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Scooteroo on October 04, 2024, 10:54:25 AM
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Through the years harness horse times have gotten faster while thoroughbreds have remained the same. Is it because the track surfaces have improved, better equipment, or better breeding or a combination of all three? In spite of this the stud fees for the top thoroughbred sires are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars while the highest harness horse stud fees are around $20,000.
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Rarely are thoroughbred times talked about.
What is the fascination with harness racing times??
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Personally, I don't pay much attention to times, but alot of people make a big deal out of world records and lifetime marks. Some harness people will actually bet an inferior horse because his time was faster in his last race even though he sucked along and did nothing.
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I guess the two biggest trotting studs don't count. Their stud fees are twice your high point.
Probably one of the most meaningless posts on this site overall. The entire harness world knows the answers why harness horses get faster and TBreds don't, and true harness people don't bet on inferior horses who sucked along for a fast time. Only the newbies and uninformed do.
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Forgive me for not knowing the exact stud fees but even if those two are doubled they're nowhere near what the T-breds are. People who don't go to the track often or see the races handicap by the past performances which don't tell what really happened. Are you implying harness times have gotten faster because of juicing because it also goes on with the T-breds?
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breeding them for speed rather than for durability and thats why you dont see many good ones last long anymore and all the starts are limited
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is technology in equip (race bikes) and pre race.
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and breeding
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Years back the standardbreads looked more like a quarter horse built for stamina. Today they look more like a thoroughbred built for speed.
The obsession with speed has killed the standardbread industry, horses do not last long anymore.
Track surfaces has also become harder making for faster speeds and broken bones. I think the track obsession started at the Meadowlands back in the late 70s with Defrank and company.
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breeding them for speed rather than for durability and thats why you dont see many good ones last long anymore and all the starts are limited
tmbz1
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Personally, I don't pay much attention to times, but alot of people make a big deal out of world records and lifetime marks. Some harness people will actually bet an inferior horse because his time was faster in his last race even though he sucked along and did nothing.
I like this one. tmbz1 tmbz1 tmbz1
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The obvious answer is different equipment. The bikes are seconds faster, rock hard racing surfaces, & lots of PED's.
HISA in the Thoroughbreds is making a difference too.
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I guess the two biggest trotting studs don't count. Their stud fees are twice your high point.
Probably one of the most meaningless posts on this site overall. The entire harness world knows the answers why harness horses get faster and TBreds don't, and true harness people don't bet on inferior horses who sucked along for a fast time. Only the newbies and uninformed do.
I hope that is only your opinion. I only raced overnights and only claimed horses with tactile speed for a reason, to suck along, especially on half mile tracks. I enjoy Nascar and thus the word drafting. In the 60's thru 80's, I WAS a big part of the harness world and I can't believe YOU said these things.
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Very easy. Thoroughbreds have peaked out through breeding. You won't see them get any faster and you will see more and more breakdowns because of inbreeding and evolution of breeding 3x2 and 2x2
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My take is that it is a result of artifical insemination. The need for live covers greatly reduces the number of potential offspring for any one sire. In harness racing, you already have a much smaller pool of offspring each year, and I am guessing that a small number of high quality sires dominate the gene pool since artificial insemination predominates.
Another issue may very well be that thoroughbreds have lost so much durability that few horses are still sound and racing when they are fully mature.
When I was a kid a good thoroughbred could go around 1:34 for a mile....and a million years later that is basically the same. For standardbreds, I am old to enough to remember when a sub 2 minute mile meant something. I cannot recall the last race I watched that was not in a blizzard where the winner did not go under 2 minutes. I guess I would have to go a fair and watch some 2yos nickel bred trotters for that pleasure nowadays.
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I remember going to the old Georgetown Raceway in Delaware on a snowy Saturday night and the fastest race went in 2:20. In those days, if the first quarter went in under 30 seconds the crowd would be in a loud buzz.
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I hope that is only your opinion. I only raced overnights and only claimed horses with tactile speed for a reason, to suck along, especially on half mile tracks. I enjoy Nascar and thus the word drafting. In the 60's thru 80's, I WAS a big part of the harness world and I can't believe YOU said these things.
The poster was saying that harness people BET on horses with fast times that sucked along. You are talking about BUYING them to cash purses and or milk classes like Pat Lachance. Big Difference. I like your way.
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Reasons for faster times,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,FASTER RACING SURFACES,,,,,,,,,,,,FASTER BIKES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BETTER DRUGS,,,,,,,,,,,,HORSE TRAVEL WAY LESS DISTANCE WITH NO HUB RAIL AS GUYS DRIVE TIGHT TO THOSE PYLONS INSTEAD OF 1 YARD AWAY,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tHAT IS LOTS OF REASONS WHY,,,,,,,,, THIS WAS A VERY EASY ANSWER,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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The poster was saying that harness people BET on horses with fast times that sucked along. You are talking about BUYING them to cash purses and or milk classes like Pat Lachance. Big Difference. I like your way.
Exactly like Mike LaChance. Clever observation. There is a big difference between Grand Circuit and Overnight racing especially since I had my brother as trainer.
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I think it is the race bikes. the carbon fiver wheels have no drag and weigh almost nothing. A jockey still weighs a 122 pounds. Drugs play a role in it but the same ones are used on TBreds so I don't believe that is the main reason. Also I believe tracks like the Red mile might be intentionally a little short as the Breeders are dying for fast times befire the sales. Look what happened to the times at Northfield when the distance was fixed.
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Reasons for faster times,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,FASTER RACING SURFACES,,,,,,,,,,,,FASTER BIKES,,,,,,,,,,,,,,BETTER DRUGS,,,,,,,,,,,,HORSE TRAVEL WAY LESS DISTANCE WITH NO HUB RAIL AS GUYS DRIVE TIGHT TO THOSE PYLONS INSTEAD OF 1 YARD AWAY,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, tHAT IS LOTS OF REASONS WHY,,,,,,,,, THIS WAS A VERY EASY ANSWER,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Agree; however BREEDING and 2 YO purse-incentives are also key factors with regard to not only the faster times for the top horses, but the faster AVERAGE times. For many years there have been horses who have come along and paced sub-1:50 miles, but today so many more of them are doing it, and at a much younger age.
If you look at the RECORD fastest times over the years, the ticks down have slowed dramatically as there has been minimal movement in the all-time pacing record in almost 20 years.
1906 Dan Patch 1:55
1966 Bret Hanover 1:53.3
1971 Steady Star 1:52
1992 Artsplace 1:49.2
2006 Holborn Hanover 1:46.4
2024 Bulldog Hanover 1:45.4
Not all of those are "apples to apples" as some were time trials. However, for the 20 years from 1971 to 1992 the record dropped by 2 3/5 seconds. For the 14 years from 1992 to 2006 the record dropped by 2 3/5 seconds; however now it has taken 18 years for the record to drop by just 1 second.
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A horse can look good on paper because of his fast times, even if he's no good. When you see a horse with no parked-out marks but fast times, he's usually just sucking along for a purse check and can't leave the rail, but some people who didn't see the race may bet him because his times are good then can't understand why he's up the track in a slower race.
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Don't forget "catch drivers"!
"Turn'em and Burn'em"
Let next week's catch driver worry about next week.
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The Standardbred has greatly improved as a breed in the past 50 years or more. T-breds run a natural gait. There is only so much you can improve on speed. Standardbreds race on a unnatural gait, pacing. The trotter is races on a natural gait but, it is not one for speed.
The 50+ years of increased speed is defiantly a combination of all things mentioned. Breeding, conformation, equipment , race bike, race tempo, track surfaces and medications.
How much more can it improve? Well, I don't think we have touched the bottom yet.
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"Turn'em and Burn'em"
Interesting. Who said that first? Joe O'Brien or Puggy Pearson?
Nowadays that should be Yannick's catch phrase. 11.wp
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Interesting. Who said that first? Joe O'Brien or Puggy Pearson?
Nowadays that should be Yannick's catch phrase. 11.wp
Clever post. True in both respects. Yannick is a true speed merchant and Pudgy is a true gambler of renown. How about Titanic Thompson ?
In my previous post I meant Pat not Mike LaChance, Sorry!
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Very easy. Thoroughbreds have peaked out through breeding. You won't see them get any faster and you will see more and more breakdowns because of inbreeding and evolution of breeding 3x2 and 2x2
True! I think there is a thinning in the gene pool with thoroughbreds as what is happening with standardbreds in the Adios-Tar Heel line.
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My take is that it is a result of artifical insemination. The need for live covers greatly reduces the number of potential offspring for any one sire. In harness racing, you already have a much smaller pool of offspring each year, and I am guessing that a small number of high quality sires dominate the gene pool since artificial insemination predominates.
Another issue may very well be that thoroughbreds have lost so much durability that few horses are still sound and racing when they are fully mature.
When I was a kid a good thoroughbred could go around 1:34 for a mile....and a million years later that is basically the same. For standardbreds, I am old to enough to remember when a sub 2 minute mile meant something. I cannot recall the last race I watched that was not in a blizzard where the winner did not go under 2 minutes. I guess I would have to go a fair and watch some 2yos nickel bred trotters for that pleasure nowadays.
tmbz1Spot on.
Main Factor !!! 1)A standardbred stallion these days-can breed close to 300 foals a year(sent oseas or the frozen semen is)--hell even when hes dead they still use frozen semen. -so This ensures that the elite horses are bred to the best mares in greater numbers compared to Tbreds -and the breed has improved steadily last 50 years.
Tbreds have a natural gait-which hasnt changed last 50 years-so the level of improvement is nowhere near the Sbreds. Sbreds gait and temperaments esp in trotters-has greatly improved last 50 years and there is still improvement there. HOWEVER because of the smaller gene pool--expect more unsound horses.
2)Along with this-the bikes are faster--in fact this was demonstrated with the Cheetah bike--that bike was seconds faster I have been told by experienced horsemen. Opinion is that todays bikes and wheels-are now almost level with the Cheetah bike.
3) Now add the driver factor--they are now more aggressive and they are definitely better than those of yesteryear.
John Campbell was one of the greats--but if he was driving today-he would definitely not be as effective--still win races but hes no Dexter Dunn.Even greats like Takter and Ake-attest to this.
Tbreds--jockeys are no better than they were 30-40 years ago.
I dont buy the pre race drug factor--as I dont believe Tbreds dont use anything and Sbreds are all loaded to the gills.
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tmbz1Spot on.
Main Factor !!! 1)A standardbred stallion these days-can breed close to 300 foals a year(sent oseas or the frozen semen is)--hell even when hes dead they still use frozen semen. -so This ensures that the elite horses are bred to the best mares in greater numbers compared to Tbreds -and the breed has improved steadily last 50 years.
Tbreds have a natural gait-which hasnt changed last 50 years-so the level of improvement is nowhere near the Sbreds. Sbreds gait and temperaments esp in trotters-has greatly improved last 50 years and there is still improvement there. HOWEVER because of the smaller gene pool--expect more unsound horses.
2)Along with this-the bikes are faster--in fact this was demonstrated with the Cheetah bike--that bike was seconds faster I have been told by experienced horsemen. Opinion is that todays bikes and wheels-are now almost level with the Cheetah bike.
3) Now add the driver factor--they are now more aggressive and they are definitely better than those of yesteryear.
John Campbell was one of the greats--but if he was driving today-he would definitely not be as effective--still win races but hes no Dexter Dunn.Even greats like Takter and Ake-attest to this.
Tbreds--jockeys are no better than they were 30-40 years ago.
I dont buy the pre race drug factor--as I dont believe Tbreds dont use anything and Sbreds are all loaded to the gills.
Sorry bond I agree with almost everything you said except the GOAT John Campbell. Saying he is no Dexter Dunn is a huge stretch. Listen Dexter is the best driver in the world right now and it's not close.. but saying John couldn't adapt to today's horses and drivers is foolish. They both actually drive in a very similar manner.. a thinking man's driver, not run and gun every race. Maybe in 10 years I would agree about Dexter being the best ever.. but he has a ways to go for that title.
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Sorry bond I agree with almost everything you said except the GOAT John Campbell. Saying he is no Dexter Dunn is a huge stretch. Listen Dexter is the best driver in the world right now and it's not close.. but saying John couldn't adapt to today's horses and drivers is foolish. They both actually drive in a very similar manner.. a thinking man's driver, not run and gun every race. Maybe in 10 years I would agree about Dexter being the best ever.. but he has a ways to go for that title.
The great era of drivers with HERVE FILLION ,,,RON PIERCE,,,RON WAPLES,,,BILLY O,,,JACKIE MO,,,WALTER CASE...MICHEL LA CHANCE,,,,LUC OULETTE,,,DAVE MILLER,,,CAT MANZI,,STEVE CONDREN,,,TREVOR RITCHIE,, TIM TETRICK,,,ANTHONY MORGEN,,,,and today it is actually are 5-10 good drivers today and who cares what AKE SAYS ABOUT DRIVERS AS HE DRIVES HIS OWN AND HE IS SUPER BAD,,,,,,,, Tetrick and miller are not even close to their prime and both still top 5
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Back then you had to drive and time it well and yes DEX is miles the best today against a group that is poor and today its power racing and then single file and no one could leave a gate like JACKIE MO as he showed in the jug and today the game is dead and the new blood is not impressive but to me it is not even close as todays drivers do not have to make many moves in a race to get in a perfect position to win and yes DEX was impressive with those rail skimming drives at MOHAWK but he did not win with as many no figures as Walter Case did and pay 3-5 and Dex does drive auto win horses and lets take a guy like Shelly Goudreau and was Dex way better than him or could Dex get a horse out with two yards to go like Ron Waples and get them to move like machines,,,,,,,,, Jimmy moriil was not a top 10 driver and today he would be or sure,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Sorry bond I agree with almost everything you said except the GOAT John Campbell. Saying he is no Dexter Dunn is a huge stretch. Listen Dexter is the best driver in the world right now and it's not close.. but saying John couldn't adapt to today's horses and drivers is foolish. They both actually drive in a very similar manner.. a thinking man's driver, not run and gun every race. Maybe in 10 years I would agree about Dexter being the best ever.. but he has a ways to go for that title.
tmbz1 I watched John Campbell since I was a little kid-drive. At the Meadowlands-he was the best. He lost my admiration when he came out and told a group of newbee harness drivers--that if he was driving a horse over 10/1-he would not be interested in driving it. He basically said he wouldnt try. I agree with what you said about Campbell being a thinking mans driver--but to be the best ever you have to do it on all size tracks and everywhere. When Campbell went to Freehold,Yonkers-he was good but not the greatest-eg walter case Jr was far better-because he could get a horse out of the gate far better than Campbell and his record proves that. Also when Campbell went to Australia and drove there-he was laughed out for his driving-had no clue. No Judge of pace and was outdriven in virtually every race he drove in. HOWEVER-the Meadowlands was his happy hunting ground-and he was the best ever-thats where he achieved legendary status.
Dexter is on his way there at the Big M---down under Dex was and still is-the greatest driver they have ever seen-he can do it all.He also won the World driving Championship-against the worlds best-something Campbell didnt do.
Dex is now winning here at the same rate as Campbell-if he continues at this rate-he will be the GOAT when he hangs it up.
JMO
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tmbz1 I watched John Campbell since I was a little kid-drive. At the Meadowlands-he was the best. He lost my admiration when he came out and told a group of newbee harness drivers--that if he was driving a horse over 10/1-he would not be interested in driving it. He basically said he wouldnt try. I agree with what you said about Campbell being a thinking mans driver--but to be the best ever you have to do it on all size tracks and everywhere. When Campbell went to Freehold,Yonkers-he was good but not the greatest-eg walter case Jr was far better-because he could get a horse out of the gate far better than Campbell and his record proves that. Also when Campbell went to Australia and drove there-he was laughed out for his driving-had no clue. No Judge of pace and was outdriven in virtually every race he drove in. HOWEVER-the Meadowlands was his happy hunting ground-and he was the best ever-thats where he achieved legendary status.
Dexter is on his way there at the Big M---down under Dex was and still is-the greatest driver they have ever seen-he can do it all.He also won the World driving Championship-against the worlds best-something Campbell didnt do.
Dex is now winning here at the same rate as Campbell-if he continues at this rate-he will be the GOAT when he hangs it up.
JMO
tmbz1 I agree that if DD continues like he is he will be the GOAT no question. I watched John since I was a little kid as well. I remember whenever his first drive of the week in Delaware was to always hammer him at the windows and he almost always came through. He I believe is still 2nd on the all time win list there behind only David Miller and that is only driving there 2 of the 5 days each year. Yeah it's a shame about Walter .. so much talent untapped
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I usually do not respond to people that do not gamble and i am sure poster BOND does not gamble by his posts and i have no problem with that but i rarely agree with his posts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I may be wrong about him not being a gambler but i do believe i am correct,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I find it hard to read posts on this game from people who do not gamble and yes we own some horses but i am a gambler first,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,His posts on drivers to me are so far off as todays drivers are so much worse than the CASE AND CAMPBELL era and yes i find CAMPBELL NOT VERY INTERESTING TO LISTEN TO i STILL FIND HIM TO BE GREAT,,,,,,,,,,,,,I am a believer that athletes are far better today but not in harness racing,,,,,,,,,,,
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I don't know squat about t-bred breeding. However, I know some experts in the t-bred game. They have all said the gene pool has gotten diluted----due to many reasons. While everyone is allegedly looking for "classic" horses, the 2yo sales are all about speed, speed, and, did I mention, speed. That said, I think the s-bred gene pool has become bifurcated. I think the breed on the high end got better through the 80's and 90's which had a trickle down effect, and that improved the breed as a whole. Then I think it got a bit diluted, high end and throughout, and the other factors overcame that. Yes, I think the horses are bred more for speed, and today, breaking babies is virtually an informality. You buy yearlings and they are virtually broken and gaited already, LOL. The yearlings I see today don't look like the yearlings I saw in the 80's and early 90's. Way back when the s-bred was bred more for endurance, far more than speed.
I think the s-breds have gotten faster because of----science/technology (race bikes, wheels, materials, loft, etc.), medication/drugs, driving style, and track conditions. Each has an impact.