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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Grandstand Handicapper on August 12, 2024, 01:45:35 PM
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Tomorrow at the Red Mile.
Boy, he was sooooo obviously off....he must have been sooooo lame....he was sooooo not going to race ever again....and his name is on the Hambo trophy, I am sure the purse check will clear (contrary to what people say about Gural and the Meadowlands) as the purse account obviously has money, and he is back in to go.
I have a feeling a certain poster here must have helped Jimmy and Nancy figure this horse out. ;D
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With ideal conditions tomorrow I'm guessing he's shooting for a sub .50 record.
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With ideal conditions tomorrow I'm guessing he's shooting for a sub .50 record.
Sub 49 I would think.
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Whoever does the morning line at The Red Mile needs to be examined for a brain malfunction. How is Karl 6-5? He was just 4-5 against Highland Kismet and TCI. He will be 2-5 or lower.
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Sub 49 I would think.
They may pull his shoes on the clay surface.
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Weather looks good, rain should go north. If he gets beat it will be in world record time. But I don't think he will be beat, new WR, fastest mile ever by a 3 yr old Trotter.
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85 degrees, and partly cloudy. Great Lexington weather
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The Earl Beal goes for $300,000 a big purse to misd
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Sub 49 I would think.
Maybe, but that may be an October mission.
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Maybe, but that may be an October mission.
agree depending on weather
he will pay $2.10 to win- vs that field--not facing much
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85 degrees, and partly cloudy. Great Lexington weather
If conditions are perfect, then I predict he will go 1:48.2 if they are indeed chasing the record. That is being a little conservative.
I was lucky that my first ever horse won 24 races back home and he is the only trotter in NZ to go faster than the FFA pacers over 2600 meters. Yeah, that's a lot longer distance but he obliterated the trotter's record by 4 seconds and the pacers record by 1/5th of a second.
The record for a pacer was held by a horse named Steel Jaw from Aussie and he was named horse of the year. The stupidity of the voting was he shared that award with another trotter in yet my horse was named trotter of the year two years running and we beat the snot out of his trotting rival who was named co-horse of the year.
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I don't know about the record as he will need a rabbit to fly the half. Dame Good Time is the only one that has shown the early speed to do that but coming off a break they may not want to risk it.
By the way his full sister just won her first start at 6 to 1. Not worth her own thread but worth mentioning.
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Whoever does the morning line at The Red Mile needs to be examined for a brain malfunction. How is Karl 6-5? He was just 4-5 against Highland Kismet and TCI. He will be 2-5 or lower.
Whoever did the morning line did a 'very generous' morning line compared to some others that do morning line at their respective tracks!
Welcome to harness racing today!
Since you are the 'mathematician' at horseplop, is it more difficult to do morning lines based on expected win pools? some tracks have 2500-win pools while some other tacks have 75000-win pools.
Another issued that harness racing needs to address!
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There is nothing scientific about morning lines. It's all up to the linemaker and some never give anything serious and are without any thought. Anytime you see all races where the lines start at 2 to 1 and go up the smallest number possible you know there is no thought behind it other than who they think the order of finish will be. Expected win pool means nothing most have no clue what it will be.
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There is nothing scientific about morning lines. It's all up to the linemaker and some never give anything serious and are without any thought. Anytime you see all races where the lines start at 2 to 1 and go up the smallest number possible you know there is no thought behind it other than who they think the order of finish will be. Expected win pool means nothing most have no clue what it will be.
The morning linemakers are instructed to make the race look much more competitve than they are.
the theory is...if you list a horse at 1-9(like Karl will be)..people wont bet as much
Brower did this everyday
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Karl does NOT win the Hambo if his and Highland Kismet's trips are reversed...
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Karl does NOT win the Hambo if his and Highland Kismet's trips are reversed...
Same for Sig Sauer
blocked multiple times in pocket
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That's the way the trips go, woulda, coulda, shouida, didn't
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That's the way the trips go, woulda, coulda, shouida, didn't
agree--but when "the greatest trotter ever" trips out and was 3/5--and favored to win the Hambletonian for over 18 months--that tells a deeper story
Karl isnt close to the greatest ever and two horses in that race had brutal trips and would have won with Karl's trip
yes-woulda, coulda, shoulda for sure--but lets not forget what we all saw
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Karl does NOT win the Hambo if his and Highland Kismet's trips are reversed...
There's no doubt about that. Without question, completely agree. I don't think intellect would argue that Karl got the perfect trip and YG drove a picture perfect race. Did the race fall into YG's lap? Did YG guarantee himself a second over trip the moment he took in? All the subjectives and hypotheticals aside-----IMO HK was the best horse in that race. I liked HK from day one, and he did all the dirty work (no pun intended as it was pretty nasty out there, LOL) and gave the trip to Karl. No choice really. People will argue all day long "the best horse won the race" or "the best horse finished second" and so on. Personally, I don't think the best horse that day won the race, but the Hambo trophy and the purse check says different, LOL.
Side note-----did you see what HK did when Karl got right to him in deep stretch? Rhetorical question.
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agree--but when "the greatest trotter ever" trips out and was 3/5--and favored to win the Hambletonian for over 18 months--that tells a deeper story
Karl isnt close to the greatest ever and two horses in that race had brutal trips and would have won with Karl's trip
yes-woulda, coulda, shoulda for sure--but lets not forget what we all saw
Absolutely agree. Well said.
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Dude you just agreed with yourself and gave yourself props for saying it. ngc3 ngc3
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i think yannick ruined karl
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Dude you just agreed with yourself and gave yourself props for saying it. ngc3 ngc3
I can't tell which post is for the "quote" so I always hit the wrong post to quote...thanks... just fixed it.
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5 minutes to go. Opened at 1/9 Will we see that world record? Already been 3 sub 50 miles today and 2 were by 2 year old colts.
Won easy but not enough speed to the half.
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Sub 1:50 ngc3 Sub 1:49 ngc3 Guess not. He 'WILL' lose again if he keeps racing.
Might be time to pull the plug to protect his record and reputation. tmbz1
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Sub 1:50 ngc3 Sub 1:49 ngc3 Guess not. He 'WILL' lose again if he keeps racing.
Might be time to pull the plug to protect his record and reputation. tmbz1
I think that The Hambo took a lot out of him, and they had no intention of going for the record today. I still think he's a great horse but I also think he would be even better if Ake had him. Nancy and Yimmy can't hold a candle to this guy but that is IMO. Karl looked to have a lot left and he certainly should have but that field was not exactly strong.
I think we will see him go for the record next time he races there.
I was really impressed with Highland Kismet and he will only get better and better.
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29.0 3rd qtr ;D Yes I'm thinking he should have something left. Sure he can go more.
There will come a time, he'll get stung and they'll pounce and push him and they'll be
layin in the weeds and clean him clock. That's 'IF' he keeps racing.
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29.0 3rd qtr ;D Yes I'm thinking he should have something left. Sure he can go more.
There will come a time, he'll get stung and they'll pounce and push him and they'll be
layin in the weeds and clean him clock. That's 'IF' he keeps racing.
Yeah, that was a shitty last Q
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I think that The Hambo took a lot out of him, and they had no intention of going for the record today. I still think he's a great horse but I also think he would be even better if Ake had him. Nancy and Yimmy can't hold a candle to this guy but that is IMO. Karl looked to have a lot left and he certainly should have but that field was not exactly strong.
I think we will see him go for the record next time he races there.
I was really impressed with Highland Kismet and he will only get better and better.
I thought that was the best he’s looked since the Breeders Crown last year.
I’m not convinced they will go for the speed record.
I think he’s too talented to try and out sprint like they did today. I think if someone can get the lead and push him through the far turn while he’s first up instead of yielding at the half, he’s going to be in trouble late in the lane because if he starts drifting in like he did in the Hambo or any of his races last year at the red mile, Yannick will have to check him and kill his momentum.
Iirc that’s how TCI beat him last year. Likely there won’t be enough talent or money on the line until the KYSS finals (maybe) or the breeders crown for someone to actually try and challenge him.
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Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter ever.
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Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter ever.
Will he be going to Solvalla to race in the elitloppet at 4 like quite a few other horses from the north america have done in years past?
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Will he be going to Solvalla to race in the elitloppet at 4 like quite a few other horses from the north america have done in years past?
I'm sure Karl would like to just so he can get as far away from you as possible, you creep
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I'm sure Karl would like to just so he can get as far away from you as possible, you creep
I asked a very serious question in racing (with no malice) and this is how you respond!
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I asked a very serious question in racing (with no malice) and this is how you respond!
You have to earn a respectful answer, dimwit
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You have to earn a respectful answer, dimwit
WHY?
This is a harness racing platform!
What can I tell you!
FYI, my post was posted with ZERO malice!
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Does it matter if someone who is a casual observer of y'all's public beef asks the same question? I will. Will he go to the Elitlopp?
Not a chance. Unless he miraculously gets sounder between now and then he will be retired after 3yo year. And quite frankly even if he could, he wont. I recall Nancy was disappointed they didn't continue on with Tactical Approach. Different kind of horse, but I agree with her; he looked like he would improve. He held his own in the TVG last year. Anyone want to wager now if Karl goes to the TVG?
This horse is superbly talented, but to be one of "the best," I personally feel they need to be the whole package, and he hasn't convinced me yet.
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Virtually no chance he races at age 4
It would be nice to see him race in the Maple Leaf Trot
or face Jiggy Jog
i dont think Yimmy would do that
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Does it matter if someone who is a casual observer of y'all's public beef asks the same question? I will. Will he go to the Elitlopp?
Not a chance. Unless he miraculously gets sounder between now and then he will be retired after 3yo year. And quite frankly even if he could, he wont. I recall Nancy was disappointed they didn't continue on with Tactical Approach. Different kind of horse, but I agree with her; he looked like he would improve. He held his own in the TVG last year. Anyone want to wager now if Karl goes to the TVG?
This horse is superbly talented, but to be one of "the best," I personally feel they need to be the whole package, and he hasn't convinced me yet.
Thank you for answering. My understanding the "great ones" get to go. I believe moni maker and mack lobell were 'great' ones!
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Muscle Hill...Europe? Race at 4? Half mile track?
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Does it matter if someone who is a casual observer of y'all's public beef asks the same question? I will. Will he go to the Elitlopp?
Not a chance. Unless he miraculously gets sounder between now and then he will be retired after 3yo year. And quite frankly even if he could, he wont. I recall Nancy was disappointed they didn't continue on with Tactical Approach. Different kind of horse, but I agree with her; he looked like he would improve. He held his own in the TVG last year. Anyone want to wager now if Karl goes to the TVG?
This horse is superbly talented, but to be one of "the best," I personally feel they need to be the whole package, and he hasn't convinced me yet.
Karl would have eaten Tactical Approach for lunch and twice on Sunday.
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Karl would have eaten Tactical Approach for lunch and twice on Sunday.
I don't disagree with you and I wasn't comparing their talent level. Just that they're different types of horses. I get the sense they'll be more than happy to retire Karl at the end of this year, whereas Tactical Approach, Nancy made a point of saying she wished they have raced him longer.
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I just made my first post on horseplop and mentioned this but Karl is nowhere near the best trotter ever probably not top 10. The best I ever witnessed was Peace Corps.Almost 6 million in earnings and multiple breeders crown championships. I realize he will go to stud after this year but longevity has to play a factor in greatest ever.. John Campbell told me the best horse he ever sat behind was Mack Lobell... not Artsplace or Life Sign or Peace Corps but Mack Lobell
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I just made my first post on horseplop and mentioned this but Karl is nowhere near the best trotter ever probably not top 10. The best I ever witnessed was Peace Corps.Almost 6 million in earnings and multiple breeders crown championships. I realize he will go to stud after this year but longevity has to play a factor in greatest ever.. John Campbell told me the best horse he ever sat behind was Mack Lobell... not Artsplace or Life Sign or Peace Corps but Mack Lobell
Who said he was the best trotter ever?
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Who said he was the best trotter ever?
You have for months.. I respect a lot of your opinions but you just say that to stimulate conversations on here. You know that's B.S. His gait is bad and in noway could he handle a smaller track.
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You have for months.. I respect a lot of your opinions but you just say that to stimulate conversations on here. You know that's B.S. His gait is bad and in noway could he handle a smaller track.
Apparently reading is not your strong suit. I posted that Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter ever. I never said he was the greatest trotter ever. For example, I would never post JT will be remembered as the biggest jackass on Horseplop. I would however post JT is the biggest jackass on Horseplop since you already are.
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Apparently reading is not your strong suit. I posted that Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter ever. I never said he was the greatest trotter ever. For example, I would never post JT will be remembered as the biggest jackass on Horseplop. I would however post JT is the biggest jackass on Horseplop since you already are.
Well he won't be remembered as the greatest trotter ever and I can guarantee I have a much higher education then you and have forgotten more about harness racing then you will ever know
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Well he won't be remembered as the greatest trotter ever and I can guarantee I have a much higher education then you and have forgotten more about harness racing then you will ever know
I have no problem with that. Maybe he won't end up being the greatest but your higher education apparently failed you in this case.
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Apparently reading is not your strong suit. I posted that Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter ever. I never said he was the greatest trotter ever. For example, I would never post JT will be remembered as the biggest jackass on Horseplop. I would however post JT is the biggest jackass on Horseplop since you already are.
EVENING LIL MIKEY,
It seems that your reading and comprehension skills are worse than some others here as well as your written skills!
I'm really disappointed that you already 'anointed' a "newbie" with this prestigious title!
Please continue to embarrass yourself here!
Keep up the good work!
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https://www.redmileracing.com/live-video-replays August 13---race 6 KARL---also, race 1 WORLD RECORD for 2 year old in 1:48:2!
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I thought that was the best he’s looked since the Breeders Crown last year.
I’m not convinced they will go for the speed record.
I think he’s too talented to try and out sprint like they did today. I think if someone can get the lead and push him through the far turn while he’s first up instead of yielding at the half, he’s going to be in trouble late in the lane because if he starts drifting in like he did in the Hambo or any of his races last year at the red mile, Yannick will have to check him and kill his momentum.
Iirc that’s how TCI beat him last year. Likely there won’t be enough talent or money on the line until the KYSS finals (maybe) or the breeders crown for someone to actually try and challenge him.
Excellent point, I agree. He looked good doing what he was doing. Obviously, between what's going on with him, and with the rest of the contenders catching up, the story has changed. While he had the perfect trip in the Hambo, moving forward, if he has his own way in any given race, I still think he's a winner. He's got a lot of talent. However, if they get to him, he gets pushed, etc., IMO he's getting beat. He's no longer heads and shoulders ahead of the rest of the class, but he's still at or near the top of the class IMO. I think TCI is either falling apart or simply being poorly managed. What was the whole Vernon thing about? LOL. But, I will say this, Ronnie Burke was definitively confident about what that colt was ready to do on Hambo day.
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Apparently reading is not your strong suit. I posted that Karl will be remembered as the greatest trotter ever. I never said he was the greatest trotter ever. For example, I would never post JT will be remembered as the biggest jackass on Horseplop. I would however post JT is the biggest jackass on Horseplop since you already are.
Squirming like a democrat. A real man owns the statements they make.
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Squirming like a democrat. A real man owns the statements they make.
A real man reads at better than a 4th grade level. I posted that Karl would be remembered as the greatest trotter ever when his career is over douchebag. I guess you are one of the jerkoffs that thought Bulldog Hanover was an average horse when he was THREE, just like Karl. How did that work out for you shit for brains?
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I think TCI is either falling apart or simply being poorly managed. What was the whole Vernon thing about? LOL. But, I will say this, Ronnie Burke was definitively confident about what that colt was ready to do on Hambo day.
TCI has not been on top form but you also have to take into account he was parked in the fastest quarter in the race and was on the front in the faster half. Give him Karl's trip and he finishes ahead of Karl. Miller was out driven.
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Technically Mike is correct. Karl can be remembered as the greatest trotter ever and not be the greatest at this point. Meaning he will ease his way into that status. And I would agree, if Karl is to be remembered that way, he has a lot of work to do and it needs to be very impressive! tmbz1
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Technically Mike is correct. Karl can be remembered as the greatest trotter ever and not be the greatest at this point. Meaning he will ease his way into that status. And I would agree, if Karl is to be remembered that way, he has a lot of work to do and it needs to be very impressive! tmbz1
Semantic games like democrats play.
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Technically Mike is correct. Karl can be remembered as the greatest trotter ever and not be the greatest at this point. Meaning he will ease his way into that status. And I would agree, if Karl is to be remembered that way, he has a lot of work to do and it needs to be very impressive! tmbz1
tmbz1 tmbz1
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A real man reads at better than a 4th grade level. I posted that Karl would be remembered as the greatest trotter ever when his career is over douchebag. I guess you are one of the jerkoffs that thought Bulldog Hanover was an average horse when he was THREE, just like Karl. How did that work out for you shit for brains?
Well LITTLE MIKEY, it looks like you aren't a "REAL MAN" by your own words here!
Do you have to be so vindictive and nasty while responding here!
SO SAD
Please grow up!
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Semantic games like democrats play.
Far from democrat! I wouldn’t vote for Kamala if she were the only one running! All politicians play stupid games with semantics. You must be too close minded to see it. Know the easiest way to tell if ANY politician is lying? Their lips are moving! ngc3
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tmbz1 tmbz1
Semantic games like typical democrat. Aren't you man enough to own the comment you made ad nauseam?
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Far from democrat! I wouldn’t vote for Kamala if she were the only one running! All politicians play stupid games with semantics. You must be too close minded to see it. Know the easiest way to tell if ANY politician is lying? Their lips are moving! ngc3
Your semantic games are typical of democrats and the media.
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Well LITTLE MIKEY, it looks like you aren't a "REAL MAN" by your own words here!
Do you have to be so vindictive and nasty while responding here!
SO SAD
John Robert Stronka DOB-05/25/1963...
Current Address- 9461 Evergreen Place Unit 404 Davie, Florida
Birthplace..Cheek towaga, NY
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Semantic games like typical democrat. Aren't you man enough to own the comment you made ad nauseam?
I do agree Frankie! Has been said way too many times. But I think it’s more to get a rise out of people more than anything. I don’t actually think Karl is in that conversation and he won’t race after this year in my opinion. Needs to sweep the rest of this season and pretty much next to be in that conversation.
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John Robert Stronka DOB-05/25/1963...
Current Address- 9461 Evergreen Place Unit 404 Davie, Florida
Birthplace..Cheek towaga, NY
GOOD AFTERNOON LIL MIKEY,
You've already said this on horseplop!
Please use some new material!
BORING!!!
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GOOD AFTERNOON LIL MIKEY,
You've already said this on horseplop!
Please use some new material!
BORING!!!
Shoplifting??? Come on man. Get a job.
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Shoplifting??? Come on man. Get a job.
GOOD AFTERNOON LIL MIKEY.
WRONG ANSWER!!!!
PLEASE TRY AGAIN!
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Can’t we keep this civilized? It’s a horse racing forum. ngc3
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Can’t we keep this civilized? It’s a horse racing forum. ngc3
Please look at who is being nasty and vindictive among other things (LIL MIKEY)!
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Semantic games like typical democrat. Aren't you man enough to own the comment you made ad nauseam?
Show me where I posted that he was the greatest trotter ever, Just one douchebag.
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I do agree Frankie! Has been said way too many times. But I think it’s more to get a rise out of people more than anything. I don’t actually think Karl is in that conversation and he won’t race after this year in my opinion. Needs to sweep the rest of this season and pretty much next to be in that conversation.
That is exactly what I said in my my post labeled my first post.. is Karl going to be a 4 time breeders crown champion or race in and win the eliloppet like Peace Corps.. of course not. He will go off to stud after a few more races. The ownership knows he's fragile and they won't want to diminish his stud value.The only trotting mare that banked more money then peace corps was moni maker and purses were bigger for her with many more starts.
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That is exactly what I said in my my post labeled my first post.. is Karl going to be a 4 time breeders crown champion or race in and win the eliloppet like Peace Corps.. of course not. He will go off to stud after a few more races. The ownership knows he's fragile and they won't want to diminish his stud value.The only trotting mare that banked more money then peace corps was moni maker and purses were bigger for her with many more starts.
Exactly! Karl isn’t built for the long haul! tmbz1
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JT You need to check out the 1990 Yonkers International Trot: Mile and a qtr
vs Reve d'Udon . Peace Corp from last. GREAT race tmbz1 tmbz1
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Exactly! Karl isn’t built for the long haul! tmbz1
I agree. A nose loss and a bad drive from being UNDEFEATED. All you morons keep on talking about how bad gaited and lame he is. How many times has he made a break????? You're all a bunch of losers. 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp
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JT You need to check out the 1990 Yonkers International Trot: Mile and a qtr
vs Reve d'Udon . Peace Corp from last. GREAT race tmbz1 tmbz1I watched it live via simulcast when I was 16 years old at Scioto Downs. What made her career even more impressive is a lot of her wins came against the boys. The way she stuck her neck out and her gait were a thing of beauty tmbz1
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I agree. A nose loss and a bad drive from being UNDEFEATED. All you morons keep on talking about how bad gaited and lame he is. How many times has he made a break????? You're all a bunch of losers. 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp
EXCUSES, EXCUSES !!!!
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I agree. A nose loss and a bad drive from being UNDEFEATED. All you morons keep on talking about how bad gaited and lame he is. How many times has he made a break????? You're all a bunch of losers. 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp 11.wp
I think everybody on here knows he is great horse but he just won't be in your words remembered as the best ever. Go watch old videos of peace corps or Mack Lobell and tell me honestly if Karl's gait looks like that. We are in a different era now it's all about speed not longevity.
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That is exactly what I said in my my post labeled my first post.. is Karl going to be a 4 time breeders crown champion or race in and win the eliloppet like Peace Corps.. of course not. He will go off to stud after a few more races. The ownership knows he's fragile and they won't want to diminish his stud value.The only trotting mare that banked more money then peace corps was moni maker and purses were bigger for her with many more starts.
I don't know when he's going to retire, but the potential or prospect of him going overseas to campaign at 4 (if he makes it through his 3yo year) might be questionable. On one hand, the Crawfords bought back into the horse and I am sure they did so thinking about more than his racing career. On the other hand, he is also owned by Bender (Sweden) and although they race and breed in Europe, their holdings here in the US are just as substantial, actually more. They own a major training center here, buy yearlings and leave them here, and race here in a big way. Their operation is heavily focused on the US. Where this horse goes if he makes it through his 3yo year.....who knows.
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Mike yea where's the guy who said as soon as he's asked to go he will break...not only was he asked in the Hambo he did it in the slop...Karl may never race again he looks bad...running for 80k 2 weeks later and wins...then the best ever the ones who make excuses for wins lmao...if he didnt have cover or he didnt do the dirty work or they forgot to put in his contacts so he could see(sarcasm)..how many horses(great horses) never had races that if they werent the benefactor of a good trip they wouldn't have won smh...whats funny is that EXACTLY why you have only a handful of drivers who drive these horses because they want the best drivers for this reason to put them in the best position...if it was only about speed and go G Nap would have drove many of great horses...I swear some of these dudes say shit just for attention...Howev er at this point to what someone else said I don't believe he could beat Jiggy Jog right now
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I think everybody on here knows he is great horse but he just won't be in your words remembered as the best ever. Go watch old videos of peace corps or Mack Lobell and tell me honestly if Karl's gait looks like that. We are in a different era now it's all about speed not longevity.
If you don't adapt, you die. There is no financial benefit to race a horse longer than you need to. It is all about ROI. People ridiculed Myron for managing Captain T the way he did and he and his partners laughed all the way to the bank. If I came on here when Bulldog Hanover was a 3 year old and posted that he would be remembered as the greatest pacer ever, all you assholes would be posting how ridiculous that was. How did that work out? Karl is 16 for 18 with a nose loss and a third place finish. He will trot sub 49 and not one of your greats will be able to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, speed doesn't mean anything. OK, how about win percentage? Peace Corp was beat, as was Mack and Moni Maker. Karl may end the year 23 for 25. NONE of your greats can say that.
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Mike yea where's the guy who said as soon as he's asked to go he will break...not only was he asked in the Hambo he did it in the slop...Karl may never race again he looks bad...running for 80k 2 weeks later and wins...then the best ever the ones who make excuses for wins lmao...if he didnt have cover or he didnt do the dirty work or they forgot to put in his contacts so he could see(sarcasm)..how many horses(great horses) never had races that if they werent the benefactor of a good trip they wouldn't have won smh...whats funny is that EXACTLY why you have only a handful of drivers who drive these horses because they want the best drivers for this reason to put them in the best position...if it was only about speed and go G Nap would have drove many of great horses...I swear some of these dudes say shit just for attention...Howev er at this point to what someone else said I don't believe he could beat Jiggy Jog right now
tmbz1 tmbz1
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EXCUSES, EXCUSES !!!!
OK, I will give you several excuses.. You're autistic..You're a drunk....You're a felon....You're a dirt bag...You're a creep. How's that??
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If you don't adapt, you die. There is no financial benefit to race a horse longer than you need to. It is all about ROI. People ridiculed Myron for managing Captain T the way he did and he and his partners laughed all the way to the bank. If I came on here when Bulldog Hanover was a 3 year old and posted that he would be remembered as the greatest pacer ever, all you assholes would be posting how ridiculous that was. How did that work out? Karl is 16 for 18 with a nose loss and a third place finish. He will trot sub 49 and not one of your greats will be able to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, speed doesn't mean anything. OK, how about win percentage? Peace Corp was beat, as was Mack and Moni Maker. Karl may end the year 23 for 25. NONE of your greats can say that.
I realize that but you made my point for me he is going to stud after a few more races and if I was in the ownership group I'd do the same thing. I just think to be remembered as the greatest there has to be some longevity. I've seen you mention Bulldog quite a bit. Ihope you don't think he was the greatest ever because he is the fastest. Niatross and Artsplace and SBSW would have a say in that
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I realize that but you made my point for me he is going to stud after a few more races and if I was in the ownership group I'd do the same thing. I just think to be remembered as the greatest there has to be some longevity. I've seen you mention Bulldog quite a bit. Ihope you don't think he was the greatest ever because he is the fastest. Niatross and Artsplace and SBSW would have a say in that
I never said he was retiring after this year. I don't know what is going to happen, I said he will race to get the highest ROI. As far as Bulldog is concerned, the only reason I brought him up is because he was nothing extraordinary at 3 and he became one of the greats at 4. Don't sell Bulldog short. On his best day, he was a monster. I have no idea if he could beat the horses you mentioned but it would be close.
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I never said he was retiring after this year. I don't know what is going to happen, I said he will race to get the highest ROI. As far as Bulldog is concerned, the only reason I brought him up is because he was nothing extraordinary at 3 and he became one the greats at 4. Don't sell Bulldog short. On his best day, he was a monster. I have no idea if he could beat the horses you mentioned but it would be close.
Comparing Karl and Bulldog is apples and oranges.. Karl is a great horse as a 3 year old.. probably won't race after this year.. and as you said Bulldog was an OK 3 year old and yes he was a monster at 4 and I wish he would have continued to race to cement his legacy
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Comparing Karl and Bulldog is apples and oranges.. Karl is a great horse as a 3 year old.. probably won't race after this year.. and as you said Bulldog was an OK 3 year old and yes he was a monster at 4 and I wish he would have continued to race to cement his legacy
You're missing the point. I am not comparing Karl to Bulldog. I am stating that history can change quickly. No one thought Bulldog was great at Karl's age and he turned into a champion. Conversely, all you morons have already written Karl's history and he hasn't even finished racing. Maybe he wins his next 5 races sub 1:50. Maybe he loses his next 5 races and they bring him back next year to restore his value. Point is, no one knows.
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You're missing the point. I am not comparing Karl to Bulldog. I am stating that history can change quickly. No one thought Bulldog was great at Karl's age and he turned into a champion. Conversely, all you morons have already written Karl's history and he hasn't even finished racing. Maybe he wins his next 5 races sub 1:50. Maybe he loses his next 5 races and they bring him back next year to restore his value. Point is, no one knows.
That is correct.. nobody knows. I hope he wins his remaining starts this year and dominates in a 4 and 5 year old campaign. That is highly unlikely but I hope that is what happens. Great horses is what makes the sport fun to watch. My favorite race during jug week wasn't the jug.. but the senior jug where past participants came back to race. Unfortunately that race no longer exists. It was changed to the Magical Mike invitational which never would have been called that had Cams Card Shark not gone lame. One of the best races I remember watching in Delaware was when Jenna's beach boy raced there as a 4 year old. He was scratched as a 3 year old. He set the track record on Sunday which was broken on jug day by Stand Forever. Point being I hope Karl continues to win and race as an older horse
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That is correct.. nobody knows. I hope he wins his remaining starts this year and dominates in a 4 and 5 year old campaign. That is highly unlikely but I hope that is what happens. Great horses is what makes the sport fun to watch. My favorite race during jug week wasn't the jug.. but the senior jug where past participants came back to race. Unfortunately that race no longer exists. It was changed to the Magical Mike invitational which never would have been called that had Cams Card Shark not gone lame. One of the best races I remember watching in Delaware was when Jenna's beach boy raced there as a 4 year old. He was scratched as a 3 year old. He set the track record on Sunday which was broken on jug day by Stand Forever. Point being I hope Karl continues to win and race as an older horse
I'm an old man. I was 15 and saw Bret Hanover win the Messenger at Roosevelt to win the triple crown.
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I'm an old man. I was 15 and saw Bret Hanover win the Messenger at Roosevelt to win the triple crown.
I guess that makes you 74?
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I guess that makes you 74?
Fortunately or unfortunately yes.
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All this conversation would never have happen if Gural’s rule had stuck. Everyone knew the breeders would get it blown away..
a horse should never be considered as “The Best Ever” unless they made 40 starts.
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Fortunately or unfortunately yes.
DEMENTIA
SENILITY
Which one?
Inquiring minds want to know!!
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You guys always forget the greatest trotter ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxefTabPLzQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9NwJb5BMfo
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All this conversation would never have happen if Gural’s rule had stuck. Everyone knew the breeders would get it blown away..
a horse should never be considered as “The Best Ever” unless they made 40 starts.
It should be 50 starts tmbz1
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It should be 50 starts tmbz1
10-15 starts at 2
30 starts at 3
Still makes you race at 4.
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10-15 starts at 2
30 starts at 3
Still makes you race at 4.
And at 5.. a horse reaches his or her top speed at 5
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It would be shocking if Karl raced at age 4
maybe he can run the table--but we all know its about 4-5 races remain his career
and i doubt this magical 148 mile will happen at Lexington-but i could be wrong
he would need a 119 pace set by another trotter for that to happen
i wish him the best
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Fortunately or unfortunately yes.
You see Mike I'm not a moron or douchbag like you stated last night. I was able to quickly figure out your age by how old you were when you saw the great Bret Hanover race. I do know a little bit about the sport.You are the same age as my Dad who is going through cancer treatment now. He said the greatest LBJ he ever saw was Most Happy Fella and the most disappointing was the following year when Nansemond upset Albatross. We will have to agree to disagree about Karl.. I think longevity does factor in to talking about greatest ever..maybe I will eat my words and he does race at 4.I hope he does. I hope you and rainman can make amends at some point because my Dad's cancer journey has taught me that life is to short for B.S.
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You guys always forget the greatest trotter ever.
You went way back lol but yes he was great
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxefTabPLzQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9NwJb5BMfo
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And at 5.. a horse reaches his or her top speed at 5
The risk/reward of racing good horses longer?
If you don’t race well you diminish their value/stud value down the road.
Years ago people raced their horses not worried about the stud barn in the immediate future. Now the opposite is true. Good mark early—get a good return as a stud!
Generally speaking a 4 year olds are at a disadvantage against older all things equal.
The same is true as a 3 year old is at a disadvantage against older all things equal.
The gural rule complicates things more.
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It would be shocking if Karl raced at age 4
maybe he can run the table--but we all know its about 4-5 races remain his career
and i doubt this magical 148 mile will happen at Lexington-but i could be wrong
he would need a 119 pace set by another trotter for that to happen
i wish him the best
He would need a rabbit for sure and perfect weather.
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You see Mike I'm not a moron or douchbag like you stated last night. I was able to quickly figure out your age by how old you were when you saw the great Bret Hanover race. I do know a little bit about the sport.You are the same age as my Dad who is going through cancer treatment now. He said the greatest LBJ he ever saw was Most Happy Fella and the most disappointing was the following year when Nansemond upset Albatross. We will have to agree to disagree about Karl.. I think longevity does factor in to talking about greatest ever..maybe I will eat my words and he does race at 4.I hope he does. I hope you and rainman can make amends at some point because my Dad's cancer journey has taught me that life is to short for B.S.
I agree
Let’s talk racing!!
We can all learn to agree to disagree politely without being vindictive, nasty, and condescending language.
Mike Campbell—-1 time offer—are you in on this or out?
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He would need a rabbit for sure and perfect weather.
Bring back a time trial for this?? Lol
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Rabbit doesn't involve a Time Trial. Ask Confederate. Mike, I would make him a standing offer to suck your dick.
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Rabbit doesn't involve a Time Trial. Ask Confederate. Mike, I would make him a standing offer to suck your dick.
ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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That is exactly what I said in my my post labeled my first post.. is Karl going to be a 4 time breeders crown champion or race in and win the eliloppet like Peace Corps.. of course not. He will go off to stud after a few more races. The ownership knows he's fragile and they won't want to diminish his stud value.The only trotting mare that banked more money then peace corps was moni maker and purses were bigger for her with many more starts.
You bring up a very good point. Looking at a trotter and seeing how fast he goes in a particular race is not going to make him the greatest or one of the greatest of all time. I don't put a horse on any greatest list because of one performance or one world record time, whether anybody else has done it or not. IMO one needs to look at----like you are referring to----and entire career, an entire body of work, all of the accomplishments, the prestige and stature of the races won, the difficulty of those races, and much more.
If Karl races another few times this year, then wins the BC this year, comes back at 4 and wins the Elitloppet-----that will not automatically get him on anyone's 10 greatest of all time list. He'll be in people's minds, because it's today, and that's what most people think about. It might it get him on the some people's top 10's, possibly. But no leading experts, people who have qualified opinions, wouldn't have him anywhere near the top, if he was on the list at all. Too many "young" people, people who remember now, will not be able to compare that career with, and I'll just give one example.....Varen ne. If old timers would rank Karl and this hypothetical remainder of his career, above that horse, they are already suffering from dementia.
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The fact that he ducked the Beal for $300,000 to race for $80,000 in KY certainly indicates that they are trying to avoid anything with more than 2 turns.
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The fact that he ducked the Beal for $300,000 to race for $80,000 in KY certainly indicates that they are trying to avoid anything with more than 2 turns.
tmbz1
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The more important looming question is, how long until Michelle believes she can handle a stud. She has campsites in New York and Kentucky.
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If you don't adapt, you die. There is no financial benefit to race a horse longer than you need to. It is all about ROI. People ridiculed Myron for managing Captain T the way he did and he and his partners laughed all the way to the bank. If I came on here when Bulldog Hanover was a 3 year old and posted that he would be remembered as the greatest pacer ever, all you assholes would be posting how ridiculous that was. How did that work out? Karl is 16 for 18 with a nose loss and a third place finish. He will trot sub 49 and not one of your greats will be able to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, speed doesn't mean anything. OK, how about win percentage? Peace Corp was beat, as was Mack and Moni Maker. Karl may end the year 23 for 25. NONE of your greats can say that.
What could possible have you think Bulldog was considered the best pacer of all time? ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
Obviously, you stare at the clock instead of watching races 73cv.2
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I think Bulldog Hanover had an excellent 4 year old campaign, obviously.....whi le he lost his second start of the year in the final of the Juravinski (many people forget he finished 4th), that would be his first of only two losses in his 16 start season. However, off that season, and what he did before that, people are saying he's the GOAT? Really? I could see some present day thinkers put him on their top 10, but GOAT?
That said, I don't care how fast he went, or what races he won. I just have to watch him and then remember what I watched when I saw Artsplace, and I immediately know who is going on my top 10 list.
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Sounds like Precious Bunny must be in your top 5 since he repeated schooled Artsplace. 11.wp
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Sounds like Precious Bunny must be in your top 5 since he repeated schooled Artsplace. 11.wp
i was a big fan of Precious Bunny and the way Moiseyev drove him
his first few jumps in his Jug elim are always etched in my mind
there is plenty of anti-Bunny due to Robinson being the trainer
i actually had the pleasure of meeting Bunny Lake up close at Stark's place--she was very nasty
Precious Bunny paced the first night time sub 150 mile ever in his M1 Pace final--1991
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Sounds like Precious Bunny must be in your top 5 since he repeated schooled Artsplace. 11.wp
Nope. And find me an expert, someone with a qualified opinion, recognized in the industry, who puts PB on their list. I'll save you the time, you won't find one. And, they will all have Artsplace on their list. And, I agree with them completely. Good luck!
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Sounds like Precious Bunny must be in your top 5 since he repeated schooled Artsplace. 11.wp
Sorry Bitter no chance. Not a big Robinson fan. Yes that start at the jug is etched in my mind to.. I believe out of 6 hole. I was thrilled as an 18 year old kid when Life Sign beat both Robinson horses Riyadh and Presidental Ball. That was a great crop of 3 year Olds that year
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You're just 49? ngc3 Just a pup. I was a Shiek that year for Riyadh. Bittersweet memory. tmbz1
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You're just 49? ngc3 Just a pup. I was a Shiek that year for Riyadh. Bittersweet memory. tmbz1
Correct I turn 50 in 2 months
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I get it Grandstand and I gotta agree , In the overall look, Artsplace was better.
Raced longer. He did romp him for that one year though.Don't know the stats but
would love to hear the offspring stats of those two. Artsplace I would think probably
better there also. The Bunny threw quite a few pretty good ones though
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I get it Grandstand and I gotta agree , In the overall look, Artsplace was better.
Raced longer. He did romp him for that one year though.Don't know the stats but
would love to hear the offspring stats of those two. Artsplace I would think probably
better there also. The Bunny threw quite a few pretty good ones though
Artsplace wasnt better in 1991-he was dominated by Precious Bunny all year on the race track
Artsplace sired many really good ones
Precious Bunny sired Bunny Lake but i cannot think of any other notable ones
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Going on memory, PB sired winners of maybe $50mm, maybe $60mm, mostly from his initial crops coming from Castleton Farm. I would call his production record average at best. He sired only three millionaires, those being Bunny Lake, Stout, and Precious Delight. After those three, I don't think there were any real superstars there.
Artsplace, as a stallion I know very well...he sired winners of $170mm, was the leading money winning stallion six out of seven years, and (from my breeders report), sired 17 millionaires and the winners of 11 Breeders Crown races, and was the all-time leading broodmare sire.
Wasn't so close in the breeding shed, LOL. Alydar and Affirmed, LOL.
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Going on memory, PB sired winners of maybe $50mm, maybe $60mm, mostly from his initial crops coming from Castleton Farm. I would call his production record average at best. He sired only three millionaires, those being Bunny Lake, Stout, and Precious Delight. After those three, I don't think there were any real superstars there.
Artsplace, as a stallion I know very well...he sired winners of $170mm, was the leading money winning stallion six out of seven years, and (from my breeders report), sired 17 millionaires and the winners of 11 Breeders Crown races, and was the all-time leading broodmare sire.
Wasn't so close in the breeding shed, LOL. Alydar and Affirmed, LOL.
You are correct grandstand.. if you look up his broodmare sired the list is astonishing.. Foiled Again, Captaintreacherou s, Always b miki,well said, rocknroll heaven,artistic fella,Fella, pet rock, artspeak,Clear Vision.. I could go on and on
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Thx for that Grandstand. Figured as much, More time and research would
find a number of very respectable horses from Bunny Not a complete bust
in my mind. Not Artsplace obviously but he was pretty damn good for a year tmbz1
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Those horse people in my circle thought I was a pedigree genius as I bought yearlings for years that did really well. All I did was to look at all of the Bettor Delights out of Artsplace mares.
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Thx for that Grandstand. Figured as much, More time and research would
find a number of very respectable horses from Bunny Not a complete bust
in my mind. Not Artsplace obviously but he was pretty damn good for a year tmbz1
You can start here. Click on this link and then the offspring link. 171 of them are listed. There are many more that have not been entered into this database but the better ones should be
https://beta.allbreedpedigree.com/precious-bunny-u1Xu2n8k/pedigree
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You can start here. Click on this link and then the offspring link. 171 of them are listed. There are many more that have not been entered into this database but the better ones should be
https://beta.allbreedpedigree.com/precious-bunny-u1Xu2n8k/pedigree
Great link-thank you
considering all the good broodmares Precious Bunny was bred to--i must say he was a disappointment as a stud
Bunny Lake was indeed fantastic
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Those horse people in my circle thought I was a pedigree genius as I bought yearlings for years that did really well. All I did was to look at all of the Bettor Delights out of Artsplace mares.
Can't go wrong with that bloodline tmbz1
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Precious bunny was 20 out of 25 as a 3 year old and banked a couple million Artsplace won 10 out of 15 that year. Alot of people say he wasn't right during his 3 year old year and came back at 4 for redemption. Going 16 wins in 16 starts certainly accomplished that.
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Bunny Lake is still relevant today. Her foal Bodacious Hanover is the sire of this years nice 3 year old Captain Luke. He's lightning fast and just a few steps beneath the best.
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Many, many years ago Jimmy got caught with syringes & needles at WEG. I believe he is a top trainer...with an edge. His group does spend good money & rarely get horses from others. When they do it is because the horse was underperforming.
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Thx for that Grandstand. Figured as much, More time and research would
find a number of very respectable horses from Bunny Not a complete bust
in my mind. Not Artsplace obviously but he was pretty damn good for a year tmbz1
You're welcome. I believe PB only sired 3 millionaires. I am sure he threw off some quality racehorses. Just never paid much attention to them. When Artsplace's first crop hit the auction ring, I looked at every single one of them. I also looked at as many as I could that were not going to auction. With a broodmare band like Brittany, and the people who liked and respected George Segal, you knew that stallion was going to get tremendous support. The breeding farms with elite broodmares were lining up to breed to Artsplace.
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You know, it's kind of funny, I went back and read this thread again. The GOAT or top-ten greatest types of discussions always leads to generational and weighing factor arguments. I remember 10-15 years ago in one of these discussions, best aged trotter of all time, so many of the Canadians, and many (younger) writers, jumped up and said San Pail, especially the young guys. Sure, a few said Peace Corps, Mack Lobell, Moni Maker, etc. Taking nothing away from San Pail, he was truly a great trotter, without question, he raced at the top of the game, for many years, won three Maple Leaf Trots, and so on. He was managed exceptionally! Absolutely great horse.
However, I just find it interesting how the younger people concentrate on who they've seen, the most recent, etc. The older crowd has a much larger body of experience to look at. So, I kind of thought, San Pail? OK, he might be the greatest aged trotter in North America.....IN THIS GENERATION, or in this time period, perhaps even ever. I can see that argument. But how do you compare that to four Prix d'Ameriques, the Elitlopp (two?), and for the most part dominating world trotting and showing up to dances time and time a time again. The horse's name is Ourasi.
How do you compare that to Mack Lobell's entire career, 2yo, 3yo, 4yo, and 5 and 6yo, three BC's, the Hambo, the Triple Crown, two Elitlopp's, the International Trot, and more! Moni Maker, who won the Prix d'Amerique, Elitlopp, and countless other world classic events. What about Peace Corps? She won four Breeders Crowns and also won countless world classic events. I remember seeing Une de Mai at Roosevelt in 1973, and tapes of some of the world classic events she won. I also remember seeing Ideal du Gazeau win the International Trot for the 3rd time in 1983. But when Ourasi came to the US, and I saw that beast, now that was the scariest trotter I ever saw, LOL. And then I saw Varenne...
Varenne won something like 62 or 63 races----at about a dozen different distances between a mile and 1 3/4, was six or seven times 2nd, a few times 3rd, out of something like 72 or 73 starts. I followed him very closely when he came here because there was talk about a stallion deal and I was contemplating buying a share. Anyway, more than 50 of his wins were GP races, Grand Prix 1st grade stakes races. World Classic races! He set something like 14 track records and 7 world records. He earned almost $9mm and won the most prestigious races of all time, in the world. He won the two most prestigious, and most important, and most difficult, races in the world----the Prix d'Amérique-----twice, beating fields of 17 or 18 horses. And I am sure many of you saw him when he finally got here in 2001. He came to the Big M for Breeders Crown. He was coming off a sweep of the three greatest races in Europe, being the first horse to win all three in 34 years ad he was racing against the best of the best at that time. It's the BC! LOL. He leaves, is parked past the 1/4, clears down the backside, and here comes John Campbell on Dream Vacation charging up with no intention of anything but the lead. So what does Minnucci do? No, rather than sit, take a breather, wait.....he pulls and goes and sits first over and then goes back at Dream Vacation.....and then in the stretch he walks away from the field like a stroll in the park, LOL. He won by about five in 51 and 1, breaking the world record.
OK, nice walk down memory lane......so San Pail? My point, with such long, established, accomplished careers, accolades from around the world, world wide classic events, multiple times winning world classic events, 50, 60, 80, 100 races, over 4, 5, and 6 years, even longer.....San Pail? Oh, I forgot, the topic horse was Karl. ;)
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Bunny Lake is still relevant today. Her foal Bodacious Hanover is the sire of this years nice 3 year old Captain Luke. He's lightning fast and just a few steps beneath the best.
I didn't realize when I posted that, but there is more to Bunny Lake in the breeding shed than just Bodacious Hanover. She also is the dam of 2 stallions that are active today in Canada. Bondi Hanover whose first crop was last year and Tobago Cays who stands in PEI and has a few in this weekend.
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I didn't realize when I posted that, but there is more to Bunny Lake in the breeding shed than just Bodacious Hanover. She also is the dam of 2 stallions that are active today in Canada. Bondi Hanover whose first crop was last year and Tobago Cays who stands in PEI and has a few in this weekend.
tmbz1