HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: theokodjak26 on October 16, 2023, 10:52:49 PM
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Here is someone who never makes any news. He seems to be the perfect example of a steady Eddie in harness racing. I recall years ago he was a driver/trainer before giving up driving. He is always near the top of the MR trainer standings. He seems to excel with trotters but only general raceway stock. His wife Brenda loves to bet at the live shows at MR. Her father was a MR trainer for years too..Fred Heck. They seem to have an exclusive and successful driver arrangement with Jim Taggert, who if he wins, always get a kiss on the cheek from Brenda in the winners circle. If anyone knows Gary Messenger can you add to what type of horseman and personality he is. I never see him outside of the MR paddock.
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He blossomed later in life into exactly what you described. Early he was very ordinary. always a better trainer than driver as evidenced by his long run of success for his Va. owners once he left the driving to Taggart. He and Brenda have been together a looong time as you know. seems to run the last "classy" outfit at Monti. Have seen his horses venture to other tracks and win too. Gary found himself IMO. Good for him!
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I remember him at Saratoga many years ago. Never earth shattering, just steady in those days.
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About 10 years ago Brenda told me they found a lot of value in horses that were for sale on line. Many of these horses were at NY State tracks and farms being trained by people who didn’t realize what they had. These were mostly lower priced horses in the $4-$8,000 range that they could quickly improve utilizing Garry’s extensive experience.
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Interesting. That guy in Va. Scott Woogen seems to own a a lot. I've seen him drive amateur races. Some of their trotters have 30 or 40,000 or more on their card by year's end. there's another owner too whose name i forget. Glad they do well online.
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Had some girl/groom working for him years ago..nasty bitch she was..
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Interesting. That guy in Va. Scott Woogen seems to own a a lot. I've seen him drive amateur races. Some of their trotters have 30 or 40,000 or more on their card by year's end. there's another owner too whose name i forget. Glad they do well online.
Dr. Scott Woogen practices in Va. drives many of their jointly owned horses at Shenandoah Downs in Woodstock Va. Meet is going on right now on weekends.
Other owner races their horses in Maryland. He is Ken Weckstein.
I used to watch replays under the same TV with Brenda Heck at the time ( dating myself). Real nice girl (lady) . I never personally knew Gary but he has stayed away from the numerous scandals at Monti over the years. And yes, Brenda gives all driver who win for her a nice smooch in the winners circle. Mostly Taggert. They all make a nice team
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tmbz1 tmbz1 Well said!
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Interesting. That guy in Va. Scott Woogen seems to own a a lot. I've seen him drive amateur races. Some of their trotters have 30 or 40,000 or more on their card by year's end. there's another owner too whose name i forget. Glad they do well online.
Kenneth Weckstein is that other owner i believe ur referring to
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tmbz1yup thanks to both who reminded me
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Gary is a class act. Came up under the reigns of Clint Galbreath years ago. Gary can hold his head high and shows the good side of racing.
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Agreed. Prolly a better trainer at this point than Clint ever was.
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Pocono race 4 in 2 minutes Dr. Woogen, Brenda and Gary have the #6...Dirtied up for this spot
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Pocono race 4 in 2 minutes Dr. Woogen, Brenda and Gary have the #6...Dirtied up for this spot
Jogburger
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Agreed. Prolly a better trainer at this point than Clint ever was.
Please put down the pipe. As of this morning, Clint as a driver/trainer earned almost 6 million more in purses than Messenger, as well as developing and syndicating possibly the greatest horse that ever lived. Maybe the most foolish post I have ever read.
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Then you will love this. As I said before, Clint sucked. yeah, Niatross and Call for Rain. I get it. And about 1200 babies that went nowhere. Plus, he was nasty as all get out with a hyper inflated ego. I knew a girl from that barn in my early, early days. had a bit of info into what was going on. Niatross was a supernatural that virtually anybody would have done well with. I do not consider Clint, Billy and Marie major connections. And Clint caved to LPG and Finder pressure and raced Niatross at Saratoga knowing he was sick. When asked he sheepishly said "Yeah, he mighta had a touch of the flu" He, Guida and Finder tried to rob Elsie Berger out of as much syndication money as they could. I'm glad Clint went bust and Finder ended up at 52nd st. OTB looking for hand outs from Rene's crew.
I stand firmly behind what i said.
Btw the stupidest post ever was the guy who told me Herve Filion was overrated.
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Take away what Niatross and Call For Rain earned and he is still ahead of Messenger in earnings. I'm not even counting the fact that on the NYSS circuit, he had others such as Eddie Hart down as trainer or else his stats would even be greater.
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Nothing wrong with Eddie Hart as a trainer/horseman. Mike, hard to get you sometimes, Often we are on the same page/simlar experiences and memories sometimes not.
As an owner, if i had a barn full of regular raceway stock, I would rather have the trainer Gary Messenger has become in charge of them WITH a catch driver, than Clint Galbraith. Pre 1980 and post 85, Clint was essentially a sire stakes guy that nobody really paid attention to. Shave em and blister em. That was Clint. Excellent source of young horses end of the season. Privately, Harrisburg, Meadowlands winter sale. Lotsa room for improvement. Remove some of the equipment, cool the legs down and put a human being on them to drive. That's just me.. I always respect you and your info
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Ed Hart is another class act that originated from that stable. He is also a good honest horseman.
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Nothing wrong with Eddie Hart as a trainer/horseman. Mike, hard to get you sometimes, Often we are on the same page/simlar experiences and memories sometimes not.
As an owner, if i had a barn full of regular raceway stock, I would rather have the trainer Gary Messenger has become in charge of them WITH a catch driver, than Clint Galbraith. Pre 1980 and post 85, Clint was essentially a sire stakes guy that nobody really paid attention to. Shave em and blister em. That was Clint. Excellent source of young horses end of the season. Privately, Harrisburg, Meadowlands winter sale. Lotsa room for improvement. Remove some of the equipment, cool the legs down and put a human being on them to drive. That's just me.. I always respect you and your info
Clint drove and trained horses that earned over 24 million. He is in the HOF. I am wasting my bandwith comparing him to a career Monticello trainer that never won a big race in his career. Please, call 1-800-I-Need-Help because you are embarrassing yourself. PS..I never said Messenger wasn't a good trainer/driver but you are way off base.
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All good. And i am saying that having groomed under Clint, I think it possible Messenger grew to be as good a trainer as him. Isn't it possible, Gary may have done well with even a few of the 1200 babies Clint went basically nowhere with. Who knows what a guy could do if he had the opportunities others have had. You were around in my day, you must have always heard the buzz that guys felt Clint was "easy to improve off of". i am not the least bit embarrassed to say that Clint was just a slightly above average NYSS guy who got extraordinarily lucky when he hit a lottery ticket named Niatross, And yes, insult me all you like, but I would sooner give a barn full of meat and potato overnight race way stock to a guy like Gary Messenger and have catch drivers than to Clint and have him train and drive. Doesn't mean I would give a top colt or filly to Messenger either. I recognize his limitations.
I am glad Clint got a taste of what he had coming to him.
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All good. And i am saying that having groomed under Clint, I think it possible Messenger grew to be as good a trainer as him. Isn't it possible, Gary may have done well with even a few of the 1200 babies Clint went basically nowhere with. Who knows what a guy could do if he had the opportunities others have had. You were around in my day, you must have always heard the buzz that guys felt Clint was "easy to improve off of". i am not the least bit embarrassed to say that Clint was just a slightly above average NYSS guy who got extraordinarily lucky when he hit a lottery ticket named Niatross, And yes, insult me all you like, but I would sooner give a barn full of meat and potato overnight race way stock to a guy like Gary Messenger and have catch drivers than to Clint and have him train and drive. Doesn't mean I would give a top colt or filly to Messenger either. I recognize his limitations.
I am glad Clint got a taste of what he had coming to him.
Galbraith groomed for one of the greats, Hall Of Famer Clint Hodgins. You're nuts.
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Jimmy Marohn groomed a Cane Pace winner for Haughton. What does this prove? Now if u wanna tell me how Lucien came out under Hodgins. That's different. Lucien light years past Clint.
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Clint had steady income coming in from his wife's father for many years. That's what made him plus great luck with two great horses. We will never know how good of a horseman he was with that kind of backing. There are some trainers right now in the business in the same situation as Clint with unlimited backing.
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Jimmy Marohn groomed a Cane Pace winner for Haughton. What does this prove? Now if u wanna tell me how Lucien came out under Hodgins. That's different. Lucien light years past Clint.
You're a fucking asshole. You're the one who brought up the fact that Messenger groomed for Clint but when I bring up the fact that Galbraith groomed for Hodgins you say it doesn't mean anything. If you can't even remember what you post, maybe it's time to ask for help. Maybe you can hire a nurse's aid to help you.
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Clint had steady income coming in from his wife's father for many years. That's what made him plus great luck with two great horses. We will never know how good of a horseman he was with that kind of backing. There are some trainers right now in the business in the same situation as Clint with unlimited backing.
I know you are retarded so I won't call you any names. Please, take away his 2 great horses and he still drove and trained horses that earned over 20 million dollars. Furthermore, retard, he did it before slot machine purses. Now go in the corner and drool like a retard.
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I did mention that Gary M groomed for Clint, but my apologies, I meant it in a different context. I was pointing out the irony that a lesser accomplished trainer like Messenger may have in fact grown past his former "mentor" because he could win night in and night out with ordinary horses. Something Clint could not door. I brought up the Marohn/Haughton thing because you mentioned the Galbraith/Hodgins connection. I repeat, I would never give Clint a barn of ordinary raceway stock to race.
I assert again, maybe no one in the history of the sport had more babies pass thru his hands and accomplish the least with them.
Pre 1980 / post 85...Just an ordinary Sire Stakes guy who got beat when he came downstate. Way too heavy with paints and blisters and blowing up shoulders. Definitely not the best help. i knew many of them. Very heavy into the multiple training trips. Blew money you couldn't even imagine. Did not do right by Niatross when it mattered most. You can call people you disagree with all the names you can think of, but that wont dissuade me from my position. With all of this supposed talent why did he land and STAY on the crappy Buffalo/Batavia circuit? Never took a big shot as a trainer driver in NY Metro? Why. When he wasnt driving one of the big two, he was basically a toss. reputation for being easy to improve off of. All that talent, money and horses and he stayed with "Rodney" too long.mostly out of ego and died busted.
When you aren't being a jerk, I like what you have to say generally. You lived thru the same era, why won't you acknowledge there is truth to what i am saying, even partially. why call Remington an asshole? He contributes good stuff here. He and I have disagreements about Carmine but we dont insult each other. we debate in good faith.
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I did mention that Gary M groomed for Clint, but my apologies, I meant it in a different context. I was pointing out the irony that a lesser accomplished trainer like Messenger may have in fact grown past his former "mentor" because he could win night in and night out with ordinary horses. Something Clint could not door. I brought up the Marohn/Haughton thing because you mentioned the Galbraith/Hodgins connection. I repeat, I would never give Clint a barn of ordinary raceway stock to race.
I assert again, maybe no one in the history of the sport had more babies pass thru his hands and accomplish the least with them.
Pre 1980 / post 85...Just an ordinary Sire Stakes guy who got beat when he came downstate. Way too heavy with paints and blisters and blowing up shoulders. Definitely not the best help. i knew many of them. Very heavy into the multiple training trips. Blew money you couldn't even imagine. Did not do right by Niatross when it mattered most. You can call people you disagree with all the names you can think of, but that wont dissuade me from my position. With all of this supposed talent why did he land and STAY on the crappy Buffalo/Batavia circuit? Never took a big shot as a trainer driver in NY Metro? Why. When he wasnt driving one of the big two, he was basically a toss. reputation for being easy to improve off of. All that talent, money and horses and he stayed with "Rodney" too long.mostly out of ego and died busted.
When you aren't being a jerk, I like what you have to say generally. You lived thru the same era, why won't you acknowledge there is truth to what i am saying, even partially. why call Remington an asshole? He contributes good stuff here. He and I have disagreements about Carmine but we dont insult each other. we debate in good faith.
I didn't call Remington an asshole. I called him a retard. I called you an asshole. I don't understand what you mean by Clint not doing right by Niatross when it mattered most. Niatross won 37 of 39 races. He won every major race he was entered in. I'd say he did just fine.
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The worst kept secret in harness racing was that Niatross was sick when he raced in the Battle of Saratoga. In an interview, Haughton said Niatross didn't look right in the paddock and in the race he knew he was in distress when he looked him in the eye. In an interview that lasts a half hour with Jayne Kennedy, Galbraith acknowkledges the horse had fever and a high red blood cell count by saying "he mighta had a touch of the flu" He also concedes he raced the horse under pressure from LPG/FInder because of the syndication deal Don't you agree that as the trainer of the greatest standardbred ever at that point, he had the responsibility to do the right thing and not race the horse no matter what any owner, even Guida said and no matter how much money was involved? They are all very lucky that in collapsing over the rail, he survived miraculously unscathed. Imagine he shatters a bone and has to be euthanised? Then what? Thats what i meant by saying he didn't do right. All that money they were so worried about gone. Clint really looked like scum when he, Guida and Finder ( addicted gambler ) tried to swindle Elsie Berger out of all they could. I knew some details because my dad was close to the situation and the lawyer counseling Elsie Berger. This may be a lot of Kentucky windage, but I have always been suspect of fantastic race horses who become dreadfully bad sires. He threw hundreds of rats and had that whole harem of Boni and Perretti at Dreamaire to choose from among others. First crop gave us Niafirst, Nihilator and Pershing Square. After that rats selling for 10,000 at the Old Glory sale. But that's another story.
Btw, I was racing at Saratoga that day July 5 my brothers birthday Split card and fireworks . i was racing at night, ironically same race. We had to wait hours to even get in the paddock. Guys were hooking up along the fence and in trailers. It was kinda chaos Took hours for Niatross to get out of there.
Yes, you called me the fucking asshole.. Remington - retard. Feel better we got that straightened out?
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I heard a completely different story about that race in Saratoga. Believe whatever you want. I have no idea what really happened.
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The show with Jayne Kennedy is online as are Haughtons comments. Totally verifiable. Everything else I said is true.
check out 1980 Sports Illustrated article for details about all the acrimony . swindling and hate in that camp. Galbraith's wife would tell Finder to "rot in Hell" in the winners circles\. berger telling people her new found partner ( Guida ) was not a "nice man" and this was during the 2 year old season. the whole thing ended up in court where a judge gave the horse to Guida and Elsie got the biggest fucking of her life. a lot of the battle was over where he would stand. ps I admit i had the benefit sometimes of hearing stuff courtesy of pillow talk. (galbraith groom)
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Isn’t there a no “kiss and tell” policy on Plop?
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I never mentioned Vicki's name once - oops.
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The show with Jayne Kennedy is online as are Haughtons comments. Totally verifiable. Everything else I said is true.
check out 1980 Sports Illustrated article for details about all the acrimony . swindling and hate in that camp. Galbraith's wife would tell Finder to "rot in Hell" in the winners circles\. berger telling people her new found partner ( Guida ) was not a "nice man" and this was during the 2 year old season. the whole thing ended up in court where a judge gave the horse to Guida and Elsie got the biggest fucking of her life. a lot of the battle was over where he would stand. ps I admit i had the benefit sometimes of hearing stuff courtesy of pillow talk. (galbraith groom)
Once again, you are a mental case. All I ever posted was that Clint had a better racing career than Messenger. You couldn't negate that so all you did was whine like a little bitch about how he swindled Berger, uses hot paint, blows up shoulders and never took a shot in metro area. I'll take the 6 or so million more he made in purses and you can argue your irrelevant bullshit with someone else.
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No, what you said was the fact that Clint earned more purse money than someone like Gary Messenger automatically means he was a better trainer . Cmon, Mike you made that point repeatedly. I disagree. I could list dozens of trainers who were better than Clint. Maybe EVEN YOU!
My grandmother coulda hooked up Niatross. He was generational, sound and healthy, except for one time. Low heart rate at rest, breathed like a Porsche. Sorry, but he was gonna be great for anybody.
I said Clint sucked and I would sooner give an overnight horse to Messenger and that set you off! Here enjoy it again CLINT SUCKED
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No, what you said was the fact that Clint earned more purse money than someone like Gary Messenger automatically means he was a better trainer . Cmon, Mike you made that point repeatedly. I disagree. I could list dozens of trainers who were better than Clint. Maybe EVEN YOU!
My grandmother coulda hooked up Niatross. He was generational, sound and healthy, except for one time. Low heart rate at rest, breathed like a Porsche. Sorry, but he was gonna be great for anybody.
I said Clint sucked and I would sooner give an overnight horse to Messenger and that set you off! Here enjoy it again CLINT SUCKED
Good old revisionist history. Read the posts. I responded to your asinine comment that Messenger is a better trainer than Clint ever was. Once again, you have some memory issues. You're actually creepy. Did Clint fuck your wife or something?
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Agreed. Prolly a better trainer at this point than Clint ever was.
Did you write this or not jerkoff?
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Good old revisionist history. Read the posts. I responded to your asinine comment that Messenger is a better trainer than Clint ever was. Once again, you have some memory issues. You're actually creepy. Did Clint fuck your wife or something?
Only a total piece of garbage would write what you did about Fug’s wife. I don’t know if anyone over sees all your posts but I hope you get thrown off. And if you come back on a different name I am sure we will recognize you by your disgusting comments. I am asking all decent people on Plop to no longer respond in any fashion to Mike Campbell. Let his comments just hang out to rot as should he for writing what he did.
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Thats right and he would still be my choice as an owner over Clint
Gary wont die broke and lonely and worrying the "business forgot about him'
Clint did
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Only a total piece of garbage would write what you did about Fug’s wife. I don’t know if anyone overseas all your posts but I hope you get thrown off. And if you come back on a different name I am sure we will recognize you by your disgusting comments. I am asking all decent people on Plop to no longer respond in any fashion to Mike Campbell. Let his comments just hang out to rot as should he for writing what did.
BOO HOO
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Thats right and he would still be my choice as an owner over Clint
Gary wont die broke and lonely and worrying the "business forgot about him'
Clint did
Where is the post that you deleted denying you ever wrote that Messenger was better than Clint ever was.
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Only a total piece of garbage would write what you did about Fug’s wife. I don’t know if anyone over sees all your posts but I hope you get thrown off. And if you come back on a different name I am sure we will recognize you by your disgusting comments. I am asking all decent people on Plop to no longer respond in any fashion to Mike Campbell. Let his comments just hang out to rot as should he for writing what he did.
Ty Theo, but that stuff doesn't bother me. Interesting that no one else is arguing the points i am making. I will sing to my death that there have been hundreds of trainers and drivers before an after Clint Galbraith who were better. The crew around Niatross never impressed me and never will and his treatment of the horse when he knew he was sick was wrong and unethical. Niatross was a fucking physical freak. The nearest thing we had to secretariat. Almost anybody living would have had very similar success with the horse. Imagine what he might have done with Haughton/Odonnell or Holloway/Campbell
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Where is the post that you deleted denying you ever wrote that Messenger was better than Clint ever was.
I deleted it because it didnt come out the way i wanted it to and I knew you would spin the context
Again Gary Messenger day in and day out could prolly out train Clint Galbraith especially with ordinary horses. That's my opinion and it may seem crazy but i stand by it the whole world can come at me with Niatross, Call for Rain and the HOF I dont care Clint sucked! Pre 1980 and post 1985 he was a sires stakes / batavia plodder
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Thats right and he would still be my choice as an owner over Clint
Gary wont die broke and lonely and worrying the "business forgot about him'
Clint did
Clint is dead?
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I apologize i said "did" in my fury i meant "will" he is like near 90 and busted
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Ty Theo, but that stuff doesn't bother me. Interesting that no one else is arguing the points i am making. I will sing to my death that there have been hundreds of trainers and drivers before an after Clint Galbraith who were better. The crew around Niatross never impressed me and never will and his treatment of the horse when he knew he was sick was wrong and unethical. Niatross was a fucking physical freak. The nearest thing we had to secretariat. Almost anybody living would have had very similar success with the horse. Imagine what he might have done with Haughton/Odonnell or Holloway/Campbell
There you go again, changing the narrative. The question was whether Messenger was a better trainer than Clint. Not the hundreds before and after. Please up your meds.
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Mike you say you trained and I take you at face value, You told me you claimed off Remmen and Pelling. If that's true and you had the guts to claim off those guys _ YOU WERE PROBABLY BETTER THAN CLINT AND I"D GIVE YOU A QUALITY HORSE BEFORE HIM!
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One more thing about Clint - you know how he got half of Niatross? Elsie Berger had no idea what he was gonna be / Clint did. She didn't have much money and was afraid to pay a bill, so she gave half to Clint in exchange for "no bills" He basically swindled her.
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My apologies to all who had to suffer this. I have beaten this into the ground and will no longer argue with Mike Campbell!
I am learning there are a handful on here not worth responding to and many good people who are worth it. I'm gonna stick with them. tmbz1
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Mike you say you trained and I take you at face value, You told me you claimed off Remmen and Pelling. If that's true and you had the guts to claim off those guys _ YOU WERE PROBABLY BETTER THAN CLINT AND I"D GIVE YOU A QUALITY HORSE BEFORE HIM!
I judge trainers by stats because I have no idea what a trainer does and doesn't do behind closed doors. Trust me, I am nowhere near the trainer Clint was. I don't understand your other post where you write, imagine if Haughton/O'Donnell or Holloway/Campbell raced Niatross. Clint only lost 2 out of 39 races. He lost the race at Saratoga and 6 days later in what many including myself say was the best race of his career, he broke in the elimination for the Meadowlands Pace and recovered ending up fourth. Great horses lose races. Ask Haughton/O'Donnell who lost with Nihilator to an inferior Jeff Mallet with Dragon's Lair.
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I just meant that with the best care and a great driver he might have gone faster. look in 1978 nobody expected Clint Galbreath to be the guy who would shatter the elusive magical mark of 1;50. right? Only proves what a natural the horse was. That's all. Clint's bath certainly wasn't the best in racing in those days.
As a certain french canadian driver we all know and love once observed, referring to Niatross - "Clint didn't make that horse, that horse made Clint'
as for your other point - that was a great year and crop. many of the Big 5 took turns beating and upsetting each other tmbz1
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I just meant that with the best care and a great driver he might have gone faster. look in 1978 nobody expected Clint Galbreath to be the guy who would shatter the elusive magical mark of 1;50. right? Only proves what a natural the horse was. That's all. Clint's bath certainly wasn't the best in racing in those days.
As a certain french canadian driver we all know and love once observed, referring to Niatross - "Clint didn't make that horse, that horse made Clint'
as for your other point - that was a great year and crop. many of the Big 5 took turns beating and upsetting each other tmbz1
I'm old enough and wise enough to know that no one knows if Niatross would have been as great without Clint. I have seen hundreds of horses that were sold by tiny gypsy type stables to large grand circuit type barns and the horses went backwards. I think Niatross and Clint made each other.