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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: LUCPARK on September 21, 2023, 09:20:05 AM

Title: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: LUCPARK on September 21, 2023, 09:20:05 AM
Many breeders have now also become owners of race horses

Is that fair to the public

They keep their best for themselves

Two farms in  Kentucky

Are famous  for this

Wood you buy from them ?

Knowing your getting fvked and have odds more against you

Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: polish jola on September 21, 2023, 09:47:07 AM
One wouldn't be DC owned by AB would it???
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Generation XYZ on September 21, 2023, 10:16:32 AM
One wouldn't be DC owned by AB would it???

Diamonds are forever for sure.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Stan durbread on September 21, 2023, 10:48:31 AM
As far as major breeders go I stick with Hanover. No RNAs and no deals beforehand. You do have to bid against the guys that sold them a mare for yearling credit but I would rather do that than bid against the breeders that end up owning 1/2 after the hammer drops
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: PurpleSheetPicks on September 21, 2023, 11:08:09 AM
Diamond creek sells bottom grade
the one they sold me only had one nut and they refused to do anything about it after the fact

lindy keeps their best too

and blue chips bids up their top ones and buys back if needed

Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: wiseowl on September 21, 2023, 11:19:21 AM
They own the mares they can keep the foals or sell them what is the problem buy your own dam mares if it so easy.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Mailbox Money on September 21, 2023, 11:21:32 AM
There are many different farms that sell babies. I would rather see a breeder with a  successful baby program than get Nickle and dimed every time I do business with them. Who's to say that the great 2yr old they kept would have excelled in a different trainers program?
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Chips N Salsa on September 21, 2023, 11:38:29 AM
They own the mares they can keep the foals or sell them what is the problem buy your own dam mares if it so easy.

It presents a bad image to the public when you keep your own horses and sell others.  It leads to the impression your keeping the cream of the crop and selling off the problem children.

As for bidding up your own there are three farms that do it that I know of.  Diamond Creek protects there's as well as Blue Chip.  By far the worst is Spring Haven and Senena.  She will run you up like no other and when she can't get you for anymore or she get stuck she will retract the bid and you will miraculously be the winning bidder.

The ultimate cheap award has to go to Diamond Creek and Bowden.  It's very well known that one of his employees who was (non vet) got caught drawing blood and what ever else at Red Mile two weeks ago.  Racing commission caught an unlicensed person with needle taking blood from numerous horses.  Probably never hear anything about this one.  Had it been anyone else, the horses would be scratched and the owner / trainer severely punished.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Stan durbread on September 21, 2023, 12:59:26 PM
It presents a bad image to the public when you keep your own horses and sell others.  It leads to the impression your keeping the cream of the crop and selling off the problem children.

As for bidding up your own there are three farms that do it that I know of.  Diamond Creek protects there's as well as Blue Chip.  By far the worst is Spring Haven and Senena.  She will run you up like no other and when she can't get you for anymore or she get stuck she will retract the bid and you will miraculously be the winning bidder.

The ultimate cheap award has to go to Diamond Creek and Bowden.  It's very well known that one of his employees who was (non vet) got caught drawing blood and what ever else at Red Mile two weeks ago.  Racing commission caught an unlicensed person with needle taking blood from numerous horses.  Probably never hear anything about this one.  Had it been anyone else, the horses would be scratched and the owner / trainer severely punished.

Marcus was just doing his job to keep Adam informed
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: jupiter on September 21, 2023, 01:16:32 PM
He's licensed, ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3. Look they xray everything, scope everything. You're racing against the best the farm has to offer. He's NOT just keeping fillys to keep a breeding line or small. He's keeping the best. He sells alot of great bred and alot turn into great racehorses. How many does the farm have in training?
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Stan durbread on September 21, 2023, 01:39:30 PM
He's licensed, ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3. Look they xray everything, scope everything. You're racing against the best the farm has to offer. He's NOT just keeping fillys to keep a breeding line or small. He's keeping the best. He sells alot of great bred and alot turn into great racehorses. How many does the farm have in training?
This seems to be the new business plan for DC. From what I heard they kept what they felt was their best 5 pacing colts from this crop.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: LUCPARK on September 21, 2023, 02:41:23 PM
Diamonds are forever for sure.

IMHO  ITS HIS COMPANY

BUT AS A CUSTOMER I NEVER BUY A PEANUT OFF OF HIM KNOWING

HES SORTING OUT THE BEST AS KEEPERS

Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: shotgunner on September 21, 2023, 03:35:54 PM
He's licensed, ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3. Look they xray everything, scope everything. You're racing against the best the farm has to offer. He's NOT just keeping fillys to keep a breeding line or small. He's keeping the best. He sells alot of great bred and alot turn into great racehorses. How many does the farm have in training?
I'd say less than 20 across all divisions. Including the aged horses.

They keep 3-5 of the best and sell the rest. They look like geniuses this year but they've been crushed by the strategy. There's been a couple of quarter of a million dollar babies that never made a cent.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: goblue on September 21, 2023, 03:46:07 PM
Diamond Creek is notorious and infamous for this. Will never buy another horse from them because of this.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: shotgunner on September 21, 2023, 03:53:50 PM
Diamond Creek is notorious and infamous for this. Will never buy another horse from them because of this.
Cause they keep yearlings that you couldn't have afforded anyways? If they are keeping them, the babies would sell for 200k+ at the sale.
I have seen them buy back cheap ones and sell them later privately, mostly on ones that under sell badly. But that doesnt happen often at all.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: horses first on September 21, 2023, 04:04:36 PM
The way the Breeders awards set up in PA Hanover never had to bid up or buy back because they made so many millions in Breeders awards each year. When you're raking in over 20mln in that regard helps keep the farm flowing and in investing in mares. Agree on Blue Chip.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Stan durbread on September 21, 2023, 04:13:11 PM
Breeders awards were not a factor till Recently.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Stan durbread on September 21, 2023, 05:17:27 PM
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Winbak. They buy back so many they need 3-4 stable names to race them under. 
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: seen2much on September 21, 2023, 05:41:00 PM
Many breeders have now also become owners of race horses

Is that fair to the public

They keep their best for themselves

Two farms in  Kentucky

Are famous  for this

Wood you buy from them ?

Knowing your getting fvked and have odds more against you
If you don't like it breed your own. You always stick up for the big barns.  tmbz1 tmbz1 tmbz1
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: horses first on September 21, 2023, 06:07:52 PM
Breeders awards were not a factor till Recently.

Not sure what your definition is of recently as the PA breeders program has been in place since 2004. That's coming up on 20 years and in viability of horse racing is a long time and not "recent". Hanover year in and year leads that pack of reaping in many millions. It may not be 20mln a year especially since the % has dropped since its on start to current years. If Hanover isn't one WinBak is close. Either way those millions go a long way in a successful breeding operation even when. U have to sell some yearlings at a loss
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: jupiter on September 21, 2023, 06:10:09 PM
I purchased a colt from Hanover years ago, 15,000. Got him home and everything normal till we hooked him. whizzing couldn't breath, didn't eat, feed in water pail. Scoped him, he had no epiglotus, paper thin. Took him to Patty Hogan, she confirmed that the horse would never race, be sick all the time and die early. I called Hanover, Murray told me I had to talk to Bridget she told me I had to talk to Jimmy. Well long story short. They had to know if they towed or ponyed him. They tried to give me credit, no thanks. Oh, and I could keep him, no thanks. I finally got a refund. When I took him back to the fairgrounds, they had a packed house. I asked the guy, he said some day he'd come and they'd all be gone.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: LUCPARK on September 21, 2023, 07:59:19 PM
If you don't like it breed your own. You always stick up for the big barns.  tmbz1 tmbz1 tmbz1
  IM ACTUALLY NOT ,,IF U COMPREHENED MY POST
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Parked on September 21, 2023, 08:44:02 PM
It presents a bad image to the public when you keep your own horses and sell others.  It leads to the impression your keeping the cream of the crop and selling off the problem children.

As for bidding up your own there are three farms that do it that I know of.  Diamond Creek protects there's as well as Blue Chip.  By far the worst is Spring Haven and Senena.  She will run you up like no other and when she can't get you for anymore or she get stuck she will retract the bid and you will miraculously be the winning bidder.

When they say the bidder was waving or some other excuse for getting caught pushing, you should also back out and start way below where you last bid. 

You can go back to the barn where WinBack and buy most any they bid in. 

I’ve found the worst for pushing is Allamerica.   I won’t even look at their offerings. 

An auction is where the consignor has ONE bid or an upset price.  All the catalogs now have a disclaimer that allows the consignor to bid.    These are actually offerings and not auctions.   

The ultimate cheap award has to go to Diamond Creek and Bowden.  It's very well known that one of his employees who was (non vet) got caught drawing blood and what ever else at Red Mile two weeks ago.  Racing commission caught an unlicensed person with needle taking blood from numerous horses.  Probably never hear anything about this one.  Had it been anyone else, the horses would be scratched and the owner / trainer severely punished.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: Open bridle on September 21, 2023, 09:42:53 PM
It just adds to the fact the odds are stacked against the little guy of buying a yearling and actually making money. Keep the best and sell the rest. Between the big stables and and crooked breeders the little guy is being squeeze out of harness racing.
Title: Re: Breeders who keep their best babies for themselves
Post by: LUCPARK on September 21, 2023, 09:52:33 PM
It just adds to the fact the odds are stacked against the little guy of buying a yearling and actually making money. Keep the best and sell the rest. Between the big stables and and crooked breeders the little guy is being squeeze out of harness racing.

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