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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: theokodjak26 on September 14, 2023, 09:21:44 PM
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I am not a trainer and would like to understand a few things about claiming. So it is obvious that trainers need horses to make a living. I also am aware that many trainers are more than willing to help other trainers when necessary in the paddock. But what happens when one trainer claims from another trainer he knows and has a good relationship? Is it just an accepted practice or do trainers get really pissed off?
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If i knew the trainer or owners personally and cared about them, I told them first or usually talked my owner out of the claim. Or myself for that matter. If I didn't, i just did the claim and told no one. it's just business. Also, I never ever in my entire career, did a reclaim. if a horse was claimed from me that, was it. Once it left the barn, it left for good.
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Very risky to let just anyone know you were claiming their horse. I heard some bad things about Frank Popfinger and ball peen hammers if you were claiming one of his horses.
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Grudge claims are always a disaster..
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Botton line is dont race in claimers if you dont want your horse claimed. in the TB game its rarely a problem in the SB game its like your supposed to let the horse bounce around the conditions without a hitch. Kind of BS in my opinion.
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Botton line is dont race in claimers if you dont want your horse claimed. in the TB game its rarely you problem in the SB game its like your supposed to let the horse bounce around the conditions without a hitch. Kind of BS in my opinion.
[/quote Essentially you are correct
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Never said a word. Also, you only claim a horse you think you can improve -- so why would you claim off a friend or someone you respect.
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At some tracks you'll have 1 claim a horse off someone then they're having dinner together after the races.
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Never said a word. Also, you only claim a horse you think you can improve -- so why would you claim off a friend or someone you respect?
if you can improve it. why not? Again dont enter in claimers if you do not expect the horse to be claimed. Pretty simple, no?
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At some tracks you'll have 1 claim a horse off someone then they're having dinner together after the races.
What planet is that track on?
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What planet is that track on?
Saturn. They do it all the time there... ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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if you can improve it. why not? Again dont enter in claimers if you do not expect the horse to be claimed. Pretty simple, no?
Agree about entering in a claimer, but if you claim off a friend I think you're sending him a message.
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Agree about entering in a claimer, but if you claim off a friend I think you're sending him a message.
Well maybe true to that.
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Does it cause more conflict claiming at a smaller track say the Meadowlands where it is expected? I mean unless I’m not paying attention there isn’t a lot of claiming at Monticello.
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Does it cause more conflict claiming at a smaller track say the Meadowlands where it is expected? I mean unless I’m not paying attention there isn’t a lot of claiming at Monticello.
Very, very rarely is there a horse worth claiming at Monticello these days.
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Never said a word. Also, you only claim a horse you think you can improve -- so why would you claim off a friend or someone you respect.
I’ve never claimed a horse with the expectation of improving them. Sometimes it happens , sometimes it doesn’t
If someone thinks they are gonna improve them 100% of the time , they’d outta be broke by now
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Very, very rarely is there a horse worth claiming at Monticello these days.
Absolutely true. Bottom of the barrel. I consider it the worst pari mutuel track in the nation, BUT, it is a good place to bet interestingly.
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I’ve never claimed a horse with the expectation of improving them. Sometimes it happens , sometimes it doesn’t
If someone thinks they are gonna improve them 100% of the time , they’d outta be broke by now
Never heard a horseman say that before. Then why do you claim a horse or buy a horse if you don't think you can improve them? I'm not saying it works all the time, I'm saying that's always the intent. eg. I can change his shoes, I can add a Murphy blind, he needs a longer toe, an open bridle, etc. etc. Why in the world would you claim a horse you think you can't improve?
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It is a bit crazy how Monticello’s handle per race is only exceeded on the east coast by the Meadowlands. The place is a total dump. I would say 75% of the horses are not worth much. And like most half mile ovals there is very little closing from behind. Post positions 6,7,8 perform so terribly vs 1-5. So knowing that 47% favs win it becomes tough to win any real money. All this being said, their handle greatly outperforms most harness tracks by a lot. Not everything in life is explainable.
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I’ve never claimed a horse with the expectation of improving them. Sometimes it happens , sometimes it doesn’t
If someone thinks they are gonna improve them 100% of the time , they’d outta be broke by now
Well, I certainly anticipated improving them, but of course not 1005 of the time. that's completely unrealistic. I often expected improvement because i tried to get in low as a horse was struggling for a weak trainer. I especially liked mares since there are fewer of them and you often found yourself in with 4 or 5 of the same horses week in and week out.
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Never heard a horseman say that before. Then why do you claim a horse or buy a horse if you don't think you can improve them? I'm not saying it works all the time, I'm saying that's always the intent. eg. I can change his shoes, I can add a Murphy blind, he needs a longer toe, an open bridle, etc. etc. Why in the world would you claim a horse you think you can't improve?
There are plenty of tagged horses out there that are cash flow positive
Everyone has their own reasons to claim I suppose
But mine would be to claim a horse that stays ahead of expenses for the month in whatever spot they are competitive in
And if you think they are good enough for the next spot up, that’s just a bonus
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If you don’t want horse claimed don’t put in claimers
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Race secretaries love claimers. No work for them. Just line them up.worst thing that has ever happened was when they started putting claimers in with conditioned horses. I recently saw a track with 3 divisions of a cond/claim race with an ae claimers. There were enough claimers for a full race.
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Never once have I claimed a horse that I didn't think could be helped in some way shape or form with the exception of this. If a very good trainer claimed a horse and did a ton of vet work and changed shoes and trimmed feet I would go right in a claim the next week. Why not get the free vet work and shoes? LOL
As for claiming etiquette - when someone put's there horse in for a tag, they are giving the whole world permission to buy that horse for said price. I don't care if my best friend put's a 50k claimer in for 20K and I know for fact he jamming him in, I'll claim. That's part of being on top of the game. I would expect the same thing if I tried it. I have never ever been pissed when I had one claimed off me. If I like them I will go back the next week and claim right back.
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The Meadows has many, many conditioned claimers for limited winners. The claiming prices are inflated compared to the actual value of the horse, hence, there are very few claims from those races, yet, I bet, many owners wished their horses got claimed from those races.
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I loved the claiming game. But, you need a mindset that is often in conflict with others. I also loved claiming off trainers that others would not. I saw early on many of the so called "sharp guys " were not that way at all. It was others who judged them that way. Most sharpies would jam a clean piece week after week, taking full advantage of this false fear others had .
There was one man at Saratoga who was king of the claimers for a couple years. Week in and week out he did whatever he wanted. I claimed 5 from him and all went forward. We often lost one after a couple starts because the fear of him claiming your whole barn was now gone.
Even after that, nobody claimed from him. Reputations stay longer than deserved , sometimes.
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I loved the claiming game. But, you need a mindset that is often in conflict with others. I also loved claiming off trainers that others would not. I saw early on many of the so called "sharp guys " were not that way at all. It was others who judged them that way. Most sharpies would jam a clean piece week after week, taking full advantage of this false fear others had .
There was one man at Saratoga who was king of the claimers for a couple years. Week in and week out he did whatever he wanted. I claimed 5 from him and all went forward. We often lost one after a couple starts because the fear of him claiming your whole barn was now gone.
Even after that, nobody claimed from him. Reputations stay longer than deserved , sometimes.
Ny Metro racing in the glory days. Virtually all of the sharp trainers were off my radar as far as claiming from them.
Larry Summer, Perry Steinkhol, Ray Flis, Rejean Daigneault, Lou Meittinis, etc - all definitly no nos. I looked for second and third tier trainers who were languishing with formerly classy horses and had dropped in price. Unlike life, in horse racing you CAN buy class
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Half the races at all tracks should be claimers. It's the best way to bring in new owners. Claim one -- watch him race the next week. And I don't mean these N/W inflated price claimers. Just straight claimers.
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Half the races at all tracks should be claimers. It's the best way to bring in new owners. Claim one -- watch him race the next week. And I don't mean these N/W inflated price claimers. Just straight claimers.
That I can agree with. Look at TB's that average about 5 claimers or optional claimers per card. they have NO SHORTAGE of new owner interest.
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Drivers will often direct their friends to claim certain horses that they have sat behind. I'm not saying this is bad, it makes total sense.
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Ny Metro racing in the glory days. Virtually all of the sharp trainers were off my radar as far as claiming from them.
Larry Summer, Perry Steinkhol, Ray Flis, Rejean Daigneault, Lou Meittinis, etc - all definitly no nos. I looked for second and third tier trainers who were languishing with formerly classy horses and had dropped in price. Unlike life, in horse racing you CAN buy class
And, for good reason. I got spanked good for one claim. Mark Beckwith had a crazy reputation at this time around 2009. He had a "family pet" that he jammed from $6K to $15K and won at will. He did this for a couple years with this horse. His name was Renior. There was a $15K claiming series coming up so, I reached in and grabbed him for $10K. You would have thought I kidnapped the Lindbergh baby!
We raced him for $15K a couple starts no wins but seconds then dropped him and Beckwith took him back. That kind of ended the dynasty Renoir had as he was now raced at his propper level.
A week or so later, I have a mare I had recently purchased from Burke for $20K. She won her first start for us and was now in tough on conditions. My trainer was having his own claiming war with Beckwith. So, he dropped hy mare in for $12.5. $18 with her allowance. I was game. As I said I loved the claiming game. Beckwith takes her. She wins for him first start off the claim. 2 weeks later, she wins the Mare open. That one stung a bit. But, I loved the action.
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Agree about entering in a claimer, but if you claim off a friend I think you're sending him a message.
Claiming ethics ??? angbk that, Friends, is an xample of OXY-MORON
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It is a bit crazy how Monticello’s handle per race is only exceeded on the east coast by the Meadowlands. The place is a total dump. I would say 75% of the horses are not worth much. And like most half mile ovals there is very little closing from behind. Post positions 6,7,8 perform so terribly vs 1-5. So knowing that 47% favs win it becomes tough to win any real money. All this being said, their handle greatly outperforms most harness tracks by a lot. Not everything in life is explainable.
they have a large handle due to the rebate groups from Lexington are allowed bet after the race starts-its a very popular signal down there
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On the 14th I started this thread hoping to learn a few things. When I was part of ownership groups we bought our horses through sales when they were young and lightly raced. So I truly do not know very much about this claiming game. But this thread, and all you Ploppers, have given me quite an education, which I am appreciative. From a fan perspective I love betting higher end claimers and wish there were more of them. You can usually count on these horses taking turns beating each other which is one reason you can get real value betting vs so many odds-on condition races. The same values used to be found when there was classified races. Wasn’t it great to open a Monticello program to a C-3 trot and looked like no one could possibly win? Now that was my kind of betting race. Anyway keep up the good stuff Ploppers.
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Drivers will often direct their friends to claim certain horses that they have sat behind. I'm not saying this is bad, it makes total sense.
Personally, I think this practice sucks big time.
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Half the races at all tracks should be claimers. It's the best way to bring in new owners. Claim one -- watch him race the next week. And I don't mean these N/W inflated price claimers. Just straight claimers.
Most claiming owners aren’t “owners”
They are renting horses for a short period
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Most claiming owners aren’t “owners”
They are renting horses for a short period
That's true in part but it still gets outsiders involved in the sport, which is definitely something that's needed.
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Most claiming owners aren’t “owners”
They are renting horses for a short period
What ever the vehicle, Rent or Own. Claiming owners are action players and bettors. It keeps the game alive.