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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: wizardofoz on August 27, 2023, 11:15:38 AM
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Any "average" 2 or 3 year old needs to earn at least $50,000-10% takeout per year, just to cover training related and stakes related fees. Most trainers are charging $65.00 or more per day for their rate and shipping costs have exploded. Of the several thousand yearlings sold each year, maybe 5% actually do well. The breeders are all happy when they UNLOAD their ridiculously priced yearlings to the public, yet are silent when they amount to nothing. Is it time for the industry to re-evaluate the cost of owning racehorses, because many of these guys are pricing themselves out of the market.
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Any "average" 2 or 3 year old needs to earn at least $50,000-10% takeout per year, just to cover training related and stakes related fees. Most trainers are charging $65.00 or more per day for their rate and shipping costs have exploded. Of the several thousand yearlings sold each year, maybe 5% actually do well. The breeders are all happy when they UNLOAD their ridiculously priced yearlings to the public, yet are silent when they amount to nothing. Is it time for the industry to re-evaluate the cost of owning racehorses, because many of these guys are pricing themselves out of the market.
That was the number 10 years ago. Its about 65,000.00 per year in earnings to really break even. This does not include staking fees.
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$55k-$65k is about right
costs are crazy
tough to make a buck
but i suggest that the top spenders really dont do it to make a buck, this is a hobby, second interest for most
breeders loving it
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If $65,000 a year is the correct number most average people are crazy to own a harness horse. I am assuming the $65K doesn’t include out of the norm vet bills. Virtually no horse at the “B and C” tracks have horses that earn $65K. So what are these owners thinking about? If they are in the minority that enjoys live racing so they can watch their horse so be it. But we all know most tracks are near empty of on site fans. So what is the lure nowadays?
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The only industry not to get a cost of living increase
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No most get slot revenue, well the people at the top of the food chain.
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If you factor in the price of the yearling, you need $100,000 just to break even the first year and how many do that? Trainers have to realize that it is reaching a point of no return to own a harness horse if this trend continues. How much hay and oats can a horse injest in a month to warrant $2000 for just the daily training fee? If 3 horses are being shipped to the same place, why aren't the fees divided equally to pay for the shipping? Paddock fees are OK if the trainer sends someone else to watch the horse but why is the trainer adding fees if they do it themselves? The 'nickel' and 'diming' has becomes GRANTS and FRANKLINS added to these bills. It is similar to cable triple play bills. At what point does the consumer say, 'the heck with this' and do without that? (https://www.silverrecyclers.com/uploads/blog-images/1996-50-dollar-bill.jpg) (https://images.cutimes.com/cutimes/article/2013/05/10/1996%20design%20front.jpg)
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Funny part is they raced 2 year olds much more often 20, 25, 35 years ago when things cost much less. I can list dozens of top 3 and 4 year olds from that era who race 10 to 12, sometimes 14 times at 2
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Funny part is they raced 2 year olds much more often 20, 25, 35 years ago when things cost much less. I can list dozens of top 3 and 4 year olds from that era who race 10 to 12, sometimes 14 times at 2
Just like pitchers now in baseball who can't go more than 4 innings and 80 pitches and require Tommy John surgeries, while Koufax pitched 260 innings a year. Things have gotten too soft in sports.
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$55k-$65k is about right
costs are crazy
tough to make a buck
but i suggest that the top spenders really dont do it to make a buck, this is a hobby, second interest for most
breeders loving it
55 to 65 for your babies is… suspect. I’ve always paid less for a bill on my babies than the race horses. Close to 3k a month on races horses and roughly 2.5k for the babies even when they’re in Florida.
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Trainers are not getting rich at $65 a day. In Jersey
Hay 3.50
Grain 6.00
Bedding 6.00 a day
Competent groom is $150 a week per horse or $20 a day. Then add in all the cost of barn supplies and equipment. You make on average about $15 a day per horse. As far as a trainer paddocking and charging for I would you work an extra 4-5 hours in a day for free? As far as shipping most trainers lose a little money if only 1 horse on.
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Things have gotten too soft in sports.
Things have gotten to soft in a lot of other areas to.
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It’s about 14 k a yr to race a horse
Nothin big
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Nutrition, dangerously "close" breeding, less foundation before they "turn the right way of the track" Strange how the breed has gotten softer as it got faster. I always said back in the day to anyone who would listen. Speed will kill this game in the long run. We had a much better "product" when it was 3 to 5 seconds slower.
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Trainers are not getting rich at $65 a day. In Jersey
Hay 3.50
Grain 6.00
Bedding 6.00 a day
Competent groom is $150 a week per horse or $20 a day. Then add in all the cost of barn supplies and equipment. You make on average about $15 a day per horse. As far as a trainer paddocking and charging for I would you work an extra 4-5 hours in a day for free? As far as shipping most trainers lose a little money if only 1 horse on.
How much time during the day does a trainer ACTUALLY spend with ONE horse in a morning, 1 hour tops, then back into the stall or turn out in the field?
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It’s about 14 k a yr to race a horse
Nothin big
$14,000 a year for what?
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$14,000 a year for what?
It costs more than that up here in Maritime Canada
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$14,000 a year for what?
If he thinks it costs 14K per year he's losing money regardless of interpretation.
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Maybe in argentina where they race those orangutan looking horses on grass I rarely pay attention to Lucpark anymore.
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How much time during the day does a trainer ACTUALLY spend with ONE horse in a morning, 1 hour tops, then back into the stall or turn out in the field?
1 hour is about the average. So they make around 15 an hour + 5% of the purse. In the 80-90s trainer we’re getting $50 a day and billing out all the expenses including feed and groom
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Trainers are not getting rich at $65 a day. In Jersey
Hay 3.50
Grain 6.00
Bedding 6.00 a day
Competent groom is $150 a week per horse or $20 a day. Then add in all the cost of barn supplies and equipment. You make on average about $15 a day per horse. As far as a trainer paddocking and charging for I would you work an extra 4-5 hours in a day for free? As far as shipping most trainers lose a little money if only 1 horse on.
Stan, the trainers ADD on supplies and equipment charges monthly, in addition to the daily rate.
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Maybe in argentina where they race those orangutan looking horses on grass I rarely pay attention to Lucpark anymore.
You fckin pigeons card too E Z TO STIR UP
ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Just a little knowledge on the costs of training and maintaining a race horse, cost of a bale of hay going rate is 8 to 10 dollars a bale, your horse will eat at least half a bale a day, cost of grain 25 dollars a bag, if you are a legit trainer your horse will eat breakfast lunch and dinner as well as get supplements in their feed. Your groom is going to get 150 a week to turnout the horse in the am, clean its stall, fresh water get it ready for the trainer bathe and them come back and brush wrap feed him, feed lunch etc all under the supervision of the trainer. Shipping is not only gas but massive tolls as well. If you have a baby even more time goes into them especially the breaking phase. Then you need to count your stall rent and shavings at around 550 per month, wormers, shoes etc. You're looking at 1500 a month just for the basics of feeding and cleaning and caring for your horse. That's not counting shipping, gas, tolls and wear and tear on your vehicle, because when that breaks down its the trainers responsibility to replace. Paddocking a horse is at least an extra 8 hours of your day, between getting there, waiting for lasix and getting home at 1 in the morning to be back at the farm at 6 in the am. So the measly 100 paddock some getting 75 dollars isn't much for an extra 8 hours of work I'd say.
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Just a little knowledge on the costs of training and maintaining a race horse, cost of a bale of hay going rate is 8 to 10 dollars a bale, your horse will eat at least half a bale a day, cost of grain 25 dollars a bag, if you are a legit trainer your horse will eat breakfast lunch and dinner as well as get supplements in their feed. Your groom is going to get 150 a week to turnout the horse in the am, clean its stall, fresh water get it ready for the trainer bathe and them come back and brush wrap feed him, feed lunch etc all under the supervision of the trainer. Shipping is not only gas but massive tolls as well. If you have a baby even more time goes into them especially the breaking phase. Then you need to count your stall rent and shavings at around 550 per month, wormers, shoes etc. You're looking at 1500 a month just for the basics of feeding and cleaning and caring for your horse. That's not counting shipping, gas, tolls and wear and tear on your vehicle, because when that breaks down its the trainers responsibility to replace. Paddocking a horse is at least an extra 8 hours of your day, between getting there, waiting for lasix and getting home at 1 in the morning to be back at the farm at 6 in the am. So the measly 100 paddock some getting 75 dollars isn't much for an extra 8 hours of work I'd say.
Agree with all except the half a bale per day per horse of hay TOOOOO much. 4 flakes tops and never give alfalfa cubes.
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Stan, the trainers ADD on supplies and equipment charges monthly, in addition to the daily rate.
3.50 for a bale of hay. For a racehorse. No way Unless it is worse than garbage That's impossible. NY prices whether by bale or ton. You are looking at 12.50 per bale minimum for a decent Timothy mix 2nd cut.. Hell first cut and orchard hay is going for 9 to 11
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I just got a quote $ 4,000 a month all-inclusive -- meaning vet/shoes/shipping/stall rent/feed/etc. etc. for an overnight horse. No additional charges. One bill a month. My question is how much of that all-inclusive $ 4,000 trainer's fee is going towards needed vet work? I'd rather pay a vet out of my own pocket to make sure the horse is getting the necessary work done.
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Jidge, what area of the country was that quote for? And you are correct about paying the vet yourself. Thanks.
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Jidge, what area of the country was that quote for? And you are correct about paying the vet yourself. Thanks.
Eastern PA off a training center. To race Harrahs/Meadowlands/Yonkers/Pocono. Yeah -- I definitely want to make sure the horse is getting the necessary vet work and not relying on the trainer to pay out of their pocket.
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good info
thanks to all
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In Ohio the percent of horses with breakeven winnings is getting smaller every year. Chances of owning a profitable horse and hitting the lottery to me is about the same. Too much competition even at the fair level from breeders flooding the market with yearlings. Only the breeders are enjoying the profits from these high yearling prices. But I think that's about to change with less buyers and less money to spend. Higher interest rates and inflation will take it's toll on this industry. Only the big stables with deep pockets owners will keep the bidding going. I wouldn't be surprised if yearling prices are down this year. I think fractional ownership is peaking also. You can have only so much fun losing your money regardless what they say.
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We were just discussing this topic on a thoroughbred web page. And the estimate is that about 5% of 2 and 3yo runners break even on bills without factoring the cost of the horse. Breeders are making out, but only because there are enough people still willing to spend huge amounts of money on them.
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$4 to $5 gas, diesel and home heating oil means the Arabs will always be buyers..... 73cv.2
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The bottom line is the trainers costs to owners has reached critical mass now and if they think they can raise it any higher, they will lose many owners. As far as buying a yearling, $50,000 is well enough to spend as the yearling game is 90% LUCK and nothing else. Studying a sales catalogue is ridiculous. It can show you how bad a mare is as a producer in the past and to avoid any offspring, but as far as figuring out if a horse's looks matter to be a success or if their bloodline looks good, it is meaningless. On The Road Again went for $10,000 as a baby. The owners went back to a future sale and liked another horse that reminded them of OTRA and paid $37,500 for it. Its name was Matts Scooter. Bulldog Hanover, a 13th foal I believe, went for $28,000. The Belmont and Travers winner Archangelo went for $35,000. What gets me is the excited faces of the winning bidders on $500,000+ yearlings. It is more likely these nuts blew half a million and they will most likely NEVER see that money back.
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2014 article: After several years of failing health, Gordon Rumpel passed away last night in Calgary at the age of 85.
Rumpel made his name in the automobile business with several Alberta dealerships but also as arguably one of the most successful Standardbred owners ever in the game. On The Road Again and Matts Scooter were his two biggest success stories both having lucrative careers for trainer Harry Poulton before heading to stud for very profitable periods in the breeding shed.
On The Road Again was a storybook tale, with Rumpel having purchased the horse as a weanling for $10,000. He went on to win $2.8 million which at the time made him the richest pacer in history. In 1999 the horse was named to the Canadian Horse Racing Hall of Fame.
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2014 article: After several years of failing health, Gordon Rumpel passed away last night in Calgary at the age of 85.
Rumpel made his name in the automobile business with several Alberta dealerships but also as arguably one of the most successful Standardbred owners ever in the game. On The Road Again and Matts Scooter were his two biggest success stories both having lucrative careers for trainer Harry Poulton before heading to stud for very profitable periods in the breeding shed.
On The Road Again was a storybook tale, with Rumpel having purchased the horse as a weanling for $10,000. He went on to win $2.8 million which at the time made him the richest pacer in history. In 1999 the horse was named to the Canadian Horse Racing Hall of Fame.
There were few races that Rumpel did not win with either On The Road Again and Matts Scooter including the Meadowlands Pace, Confederation Cup, Cane Pace, Prix D'Ete, Canadian Pacing Derby, Stewart Fraser Memorial and U.S. Pacing Championship to nave but a few
Bothe horses were groomed ny a young, tall Canadian kid named Hughy. Nice kid, when Matt's came to Yonkers he was stabled in a lower barn not too far from me. Hughy was friends with a groom at the track that I knew well, so one thing led to the other, and Hughy allowed us into Matt's stall with his supervision. Matt's Scooter was the most impressive Standardbred I had ever seen up close from a physical standpoint, but that thing that really stood out was his massive, thick neck and his head which was in perfect proportion and parallel to his body. Plus he had a massively wide airway between his cheek bones. U thought to myself , "imagine that engine, getting all that air" When I see Confederate now, he reminds me a lot of Matt's Scooter. What a treat that experience was.
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Shipping charges: If a horse is shipped 350 miles each way, what should the roundtrip fee be, excluding tolls, which varies from state to state?
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Shipping charges: If a horse is shipped 350 miles each way, what should the roundtrip fee be, excluding tolls, which varies from state to state?700
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The guys that paid Allturd and Cassie Carbonate 6k a month would consider 50k annually a bargain!
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Big Sexy's training Bill's probably average 50k a year.
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Big Sexy's training Bill's probably average 50k a year.
I remember walking through the parking lot at the top of the ramp at YR towards my truck. it was always windy up there and a piece of paper had blown on to my truck. Naturally I looked at it. It was a bill from Dr.Connor, a respected vet in those days. It was to Danny Kramer et al, the owners of Docs Fella the top FFA horse in NY at the time. 1 month, just for Docs Fella - $7,200. I remember saying "HOLY SHIT!" True story..
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Shipping charges: If a horse is shipped 350 miles each way, what should the roundtrip fee be, excluding tolls, which varies from state to state?
More info please.
Trainers truck and trailer or shipping co. like Brook Ledge?
How many on the load?
Stops inbetween?
One groom or no groom?
ETC?
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One horse.....trainer's truck.....no groom-----no stops.
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I remember when we had four cheap claimers in the early 80's at Pompano Park. We were charged $150 per day for all four which did not include the farrier (Mike Cable) who was about $500 a month and our groom (Mikey Metcalf) who got $40 to paddock on race days. Having cheap claimers is of course a losing endeavor. Between the monthly bills and those vet costs, i figure my three partners and me lost about !0 grand a year. It was fun at times being in "The Game", but most of the owners i met had similar results over the years.
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if u have a top tier trainer its about
65 to 75 YR IN TRAINERS BILLS
ALL IN
VET SHIPPING SHOEING ETC ETC
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3.50 for a bale of hay. For a racehorse. No way Unless it is worse than garbage That's impossible. NY prices whether by bale or ton. You are looking at 12.50 per bale minimum for a decent Timothy mix 2nd cut.. Hell first cut and orchard hay is going for 9 to 11
That is a rough estimate on per day cost. I average 1/3 bale of hay per day per horse
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Oh, you meant 3.50 for a days ration
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its all well and good to point out the few cheap yearlings that go on to be great horses, it happens and thats what keeps the game great
but for every yearling that sells for under $50 k that goes on to make $500k there are 99 others that make nothing
look at the top horses in most classes, they have pedigree and they have conformation
to suggest that both or one of those does not matter is ridiculous
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1980s YR/RR Im charging $45 per day - that gets you ME, A groom, feed, bedding, basic equipment, supplements etc. So, basic is $1500. assuming shoes 1.5 times per month - $250 Now we are at $1,750 Assuming the horse races 3 times in a month, we have 3 paddock fees I paid grooms $45 for a paddock. If we won I gave a $100 win bonus which came out of my pocket, the owners were free to tip grooms as they pleased So 3 paddocks per month billed to owner - $135 Now we are around $1,900 per month
If we shipped crosstown that was billed by the shipper As for the big invariable, the vet, let's just say I did all I could to keep that to a minimum. I did not believe in jugs and rarely injected joints. As for tubing and pre-racing, no comment. Between horse dentist and vets i tried to keep things to around $300 per month MAX. besided I had Drs. DeCicco, Danvers, Grasso, etc at Yonkers - not much to choose from there. All in all, my bills averaged around $2250 per month, per horse to owners.
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I was around 17 years old when Frank Popfinger in between training sets struck up a brief convo with me because I complimented one of his SS fillies, Stonegate Octane. He said directly, "Kid, if you cant make twice gambling what your horse makes racing, you'll die broke" As many on here may or may not know, Frank was an excellent schemer and strategist, gambler and race fixer. Any of his horses could win on any night from any post and he would sit on them a month. Btw, he did not die broke - when he retired he opened up a fine Italian restaurant in lower Manhattan and that takes cash.
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If he thinks it costs 14K per year he's losing money regardless of interpretation.
HIS COST PROBABLY IS 14K PER YEAR BECAUSE HE ONLY OWNS MAYBE 10-15% OF ALL OF THOSE HORSES WITH ERV. SO AT THAT RATE LUCPARK IS REALLY BEING TRUTHFUL BECAUSE HE LEFT OUT THAT 14K PER YEAR IS ONLY FOR HIS SMALL PERCENTAGE OF OWNERSHIP
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horsemen are just stealing the slot welfare money
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My gut was always that he is a fractional owner. Big time, principal owners dont have the inclination to talk like he does.
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My gut was always that he is a fractional owner. Big time, principal owners dont have the inclination to talk like he does.
100% true. LucPark deep down is a good guy that has a great sense of humor. But he has only own small percentages of the horses with the many trainers he’s had. The big time owners usually keep their mouth shut and are less than friendly people. I’ll refer you guys to look at fellow horseplopper Howard Taylor and when and how he posts here. He’s sharp and his posts make sense and the guy owned many million dollar horses.
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100% true. LucPark deep down is a good guy that has a great sense of humor. But he has only own small percentages of the horses with the many trainers he’s had. The big time owners usually keep their mouth shut and are less than friendly people. I’ll refer you guys to look at fellow horseplopper Howard Taylor and when and how he posts here. He’s sharp and his posts make sense and the guy owned many million dollar horses.
Interesting. No Idea HT was on here. Ty for the info, but unless we know his screen name doesn't help us much LOL..
Only know of him, Not crazy about his trainer choices, especially LT, but that's not my business.
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Great info
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You forgot about the expenses of training in Florida for the winter. Try 1 thousand each way to ship plus higher feed costs as well as shaving/bedding straw costs.
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You forgot about the expenses of training in Florida for the winter. Try 1 thousand each way to ship plus higher feed costs as well as shaving/bedding straw costs.
and big carrots
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and big carrots
And food is more expensive for the people who take of the horses down in Florida too.
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agree with the comments and figures quoted are accurate
and while i concur that purses have not increased there is a lot of stake money out there to chase
you wont get rich but you can make $50-$60 k with a average/decent horse
the best ones cant race in all the races , there is a lot of overlapping dates
and remember you dont need to recoup the entire yearling purchase price in their 2 yr or even 3 yr old year
really breaking even should be the goal and have some fun
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The cost will come down when the slots handouts go away.
How do costs go down when you will be racing for blankets and trophies instead of money???
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It’s about 14 k a yr to race a horse
Nothin big
ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 Maybe if you turn them out for 8 months 87xc.2
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If you factor in the price of the yearling, you need $100,000 just to break even the first year and how many do that? Trainers have to realize that it is reaching a point of no return to own a harness horse if this trend continues. How much hay and oats can a horse injest in a month to warrant $2000 for just the daily training fee? If 3 horses are being shipped to the same place, why aren't the fees divided equally to pay for the shipping? Paddock fees are OK if the trainer sends someone else to watch the horse but why is the trainer adding fees if they do it themselves? The 'nickel' and 'diming' has becomes GRANTS and FRANKLINS added to these bills. It is similar to cable triple play bills. At what point does the consumer say, 'the heck with this' and do without that? (https://www.silverrecyclers.com/uploads/blog-images/1996-50-dollar-bill.jpg) (https://images.cutimes.com/cutimes/article/2013/05/10/1996%20design%20front.jpg) so are you telling me that a trainer shouldn't get paid to paddock wtf is that nobody does shit for free anymore that has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard you win asshole of the year award
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ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 Maybe if you turn them out for 8 months 87xc.2
The 14K is 4 months training @ 3000/month, and $ 1000 each way to ship to Florida and back up north!!
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horsemen are just stealing the slot welfare money
1,000%
They cheat the bettors every day.
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From when the hammer falls at the sale to July first when they should be racing I figure $18,000 to $19,000 including state SS and a few other stake payments and no surprise vet bills. That is up 15 to 20% from pre pandemic figures.
Yearlings bought at Harrisburg, Fl. Trained.
I have had yearlings for years. Do they have to be in Fl.? No.. but if I cant afford to train a yearling where the temperatures are at least moderate, no frozen tracks and they can train on a schedule not when weather or track conditions permit, I can’t afford a yearling.
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Because there will be less demand. The price of anything used to race will have to be dropped or they will sit on the shelf. Lower purses mean less horses racing which means less demand for everything. Simple supply and demand.
If thats the case join 4H and show horses. ngc3 ngc3 ngc3
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Seems the market dictates what anything costs. If the yearlings sell for big money the bidding did that. If its multi millionaires hobby so be it, then the little guy gets priced out of the market.