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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Meadow Ford on August 14, 2023, 03:27:36 PM
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In the 80's/90's like most trainers I started using more and more catch drivers.
I would always ask the owner not who do you want to drive your horse, but who do you not want to drive your horse and why
Here are four possible answers as why they did not want so and so to drive their horse.
To Much Foul Language
To Much Whipping
I am afraid, if he likes my horse he will have one of his other trainers claim it.
No Driving Ability
For fun guess what answer of the four I got the most and what answer I never got.
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Are we talking YR, RR, MR, Big M?
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Are we talking YR, RR, MR, Big M?
I am not talking names. Just reasons not to put someone up to drive.
In the hay days of Chicago.
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I see
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my uneducated guess - You never got' too much whipping' & you often got 'I'm afraid he might claim my horse'.
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my uneducated guess - You never got' too much whipping' & you often got 'I'm afraid he might claim my horse'.
Thanks Frank
I will be back on Tuesday afternoon and let you know what my small sample found.
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With all due respect as a trainer to another trainer, I would NEVER ask, let alone have an owner tell me who they want to drive their horses. Never would, never did. To me, for a trainer, that's a path to destruction.
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With all due respect as a trainer to another trainer, I would NEVER ask, let alone have an owner tell me who they want to drive their horses. Never would, never did. To me, for a trainer, that's a path to destruction.
With my current trainer since I'm majority owner I always suggest which driver I want. Since I'm retired I watch many more races and drivers than he does. Now. if that driver isn't available I let him make the decision. Normally, we are on the same page who we like to drive anyways.
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In the 80's/90's like most trainers I started using more and more catch drivers.
I would always ask the owner not who do you want to drive your horse, but who do you not want to drive your horse and why
Here are four possible answers as why they did not want so and so to drive their horse.
To Much Foul Language
To Much Whipping
I am afraid, if he likes my horse he will have one of his other trainers claim it.
No Driving Ability
For fun guess what answer of the four I got the most and what answer I never got.
Since we're talking about the 80's/ 90's when all drivers whipped I would say no driving ability the most and too much foul language the least.
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With all due respect as a trainer to another trainer, I would NEVER ask, let alone have an owner tell me who they want to drive their horses. Never would, never did. To me, for a trainer, that's a path to destruction.
Just curious
What is your take on Lou Guida, Nihilator, Bill Haughton, and Bill O'donnell?
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I respect Haughton going to the catch driver. Lou Guida was not my cup of tea, especially given his association with Morty Finder who was a degenerate scumbag. Can still picture him at the 52nd street OTB in Manhattan sucking up to the wiseguys who were part of that crew with Rene P. Wont mention names. Finder would wear Wall street suits with converse and look like a pariah. As for Nihilator, flat out monster I think he could beat his daddy in a heartbeat. 12 wins outta 13 at 2 First horse to earn 3 million Most money ever earned in stakes races at the time and on and on Always reminded me of Whata baron
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Just curious
What is your take on Lou Guida, Nihilator, Bill Haughton, and Bill O'donnell?
Was it Haughton's idea to put up Billy O or did Guida insist?
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I dont know really, but I do remember Billy H. saying something about younger and catch driver and saying this great horse deserved every edge. many people were surprised but respected his decision.
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100% guida wanting billyo haughton would never have given up the drive on his own it was either use odnell or they would move the horse to new trainer
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Well, Billy was whispering about not driving past 86, ironically when he got killed - spooky. I knew Dr. Seeber pretty good and he said Billy told Ernie gaskin he didn't want to get beat with the best horse by one of the new young catch drivers.
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In the 80's/90's like most trainers I started using more and more catch drivers.
I would always ask the owner not who do you want to drive your horse, but who do you not want to drive your horse and why
Here are four possible answers as why they did not want so and so to drive their horse.
To Much Foul Language
To Much Whipping
I am afraid, if he likes my horse he will have one of his other trainers claim it.
No Driving Ability
For fun guess what answer of the four I got the most and what answer I never got.
Here is what my small sample of mid-west owners said.
Most owners left that choice up to me.
One owner said
"Please don't put that foul mouth so and so up. I don't want him coming up and asking my wife or friends how the f are you".
Another said.
"I don't want to be associated with anyone that talks like mother is only half a word".
Another said.
"Please don't put up so and so to cut and slash my horses".
Another said.
"I am afraid if so and so drives and likes my horse he will have one of his bigger clients claim it".
No owner ever said.
I know so and so wins a lot of races, but I don't think he has any driving skills".
I do know that all the wives, daughters, and girl friends wanted Dave Magee to drive their horse.
Why?
So they might get the opportunity to hug and squeeze him like a little Teddy Bear.
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OOOOOOOOK
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That was the end of Tommy, as a catch driver, still got to drive Pershing Square, but he wasn't happy about it. After Billy was gone, some owners left like rats from a sinking ship. Lost some good horses , not the same after WRH died.
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Virtually all their owners it is true. Not the same ballgame without Billy at the sales. His eyes and hands and "windpipe trick" with the yearlings was lost when we lost him. Still one of the greatest horseman and people and gentleman the sport will ever see and it will always be that way.
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I respect Haughton going to the catch driver. Lou Guida was not my cup of tea, especially given his association with Morty Finder who was a degenerate scumbag. Can still picture him at the 52nd street OTB in Manhattan sucking up to the wiseguys who were part of that crew with Rene P. Wont mention names. Finder would wear Wall street suits with converse and look like a pariah. As for Nihilator, flat out monster I think he could beat his daddy in a heartbeat. 12 wins outta 13 at 2 First horse to earn 3 million Most money ever earned in stakes races at the time and on and on Always reminded me of Whata baron
I remember Morty Finder at the Cloud Casino. He had the first table on the finish line. Wasn’t shy at the window.
As for pop and son, I would bet on Niatross. Nothing against your monster but I always felt his connections hand picked every race.
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Wait a second...How do you earn 3 million plus in those days, win 12 out of 13 at 2, set numerous track and world records and win the most stakes money ever IF YOU ARE HANDPICKING EVERY RACE? Nihilator may be forgotten about by now in the annals of racing but he was one of the greatest pacers to ever wear a bridle.
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Wait a second...How do you earn 3 million plus in those days, win 12 out of 13 at 2, set numerous track and world records and win the most stakes money ever IF YOU ARE HANDPICKING EVERY RACE? Nihilator may be forgotten about by now in the annals of racing but he was one of the greatest pacers to ever wear a bridle.
Yes. One of the greatest ever. In my book Niatross was the greatest ever.
My book has Michael Jorden as greatest. Many think it’s Lebron. Mario Lemaux is my greatest ever. Most feel it’s Gretzky. There isn’t any right or wrong. Just our opinions. Red Man, greatest ever ;D
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ok buddy Michael Jordan yes Lemiuex no Gretzky has twice as many goals as the next higher scorer Only sport in history this has happened. There was a time along time where Niatross was greatest ever That time is no more Would he transcend to any era without a doubt. But I have seen horses notably 3 he wpould have trouble with. Carmine greatest ever? You are cute but he isnt even close. Tell me about his Meadowlands and Grand Circuit achievements. There are none. Just to remind you, i raced horses in a partnership with Carmine under Jack Tashjiand and Robbie Soegelman for several years He may have a soft spot in your heart but he was not the greatest ever You have to realize that while they were competing, Herve and Buddy were better drivers and horseman than Carmine Hope we are still friends
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To me the greatness of Niatross is how he overcame his trainer, driver, asst trainer and groom to become the first to break !.50
Abysmal sire too except, basically, for Nihilator
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Yes. One of the greatest ever. In my book Niatross was the greatest ever.
My book has Michael Jorden as greatest. Many think it’s Lebron. Mario Lemaux is my greatest ever. Most feel it’s Gretzky. There isn’t any right or wrong. Just our opinions. Red Man, greatest ever ;D
Jordan was the greatest basketball player of my lifetime. Lebron never learned the fundamentals of defense. Niatross and Secretariat were the Jordans of the horse world.
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11.wp
ok buddy Michael Jordan yes Lemiuex no Gretzky has twice as many goals as the next higher scorer Only sport in history this has happened. There was a time along time where Niatross was greatest ever That time is no more Would he transcend to any era without a doubt. But I have seen horses notably 3 he wpould have trouble with. Carmine greatest ever? You are cute but he isnt even close. Tell me about his Meadowlands and Grand Circuit achievements. There are none. Just to remind you, i raced horses in a partnership with Carmine under Jack Tashjiand and Robbie Soegelman for several years He may have a soft spot in your heart but he was not the greatest ever You have to realize that while they were competing,
Herve and Buddy were better drivers and horseman than Carmine Hope we are still friends
Wow Hadn’t thought of Jack Tashian in years.
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ok buddy Michael Jordan yes Lemiuex no Gretzky has twice as many goals as the next higher scorer Only sport in history this has happened. There was a time along time where Niatross was greatest ever That time is no more Would he transcend to any era without a doubt. But I have seen horses notably 3 he wpould have trouble with. Carmine greatest ever? You are cute but he isnt even close. Tell me about his Meadowlands and Grand Circuit achievements. There are none. Just to remind you, i raced horses in a partnership with Carmine under Jack Tashjiand and Robbie Soegelman for several years He may have a soft spot in your heart but he was not the greatest ever You have to realize that while they were competing, Herve and Buddy were better drivers and horseman than Carmine Hope we are still friends
Yes, still friends.
You can’t go by just points. They are almost equal. The Great One averaged 1.92 points per game. Mario 1.88
Assists were 1.32 Wayne to 1.12 Mario per game.
Mario had a 0.75 goals per game average. I don’t know what Wayne’s number was but it wasn’t higher because Mike Bossy was #1 at 0.76
Mario had back issues and Hodgkin’s lymphoma shorten his career.
And while we are on hockey, someone needs to tell Barry Trots that Mike Bossy was the greatest goal scorer ever and it’s not Alexander Ovechkin. ngc3
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GRETZKY 894 GOALS
1963 ASSISTS
2857 Total points
This dwarfs everyone on the list by 1000 or more Thats what i was saying it is scary
Greatest ever
Lemieux 11th all time 1700=+ 1100 points behind WG
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GRETZKY 894 GOALS
1963 ASSISTS
2857 Total points
This dwarfs everyone on the list by 1000 or more Thats what i was saying it is scary
Greatest ever
Lemieux 11th all time 1700=+ 1100 points behind WG
He played twice as many games as Mario.
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Endurance is the other half of greatness
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Oh, and 1400 to 900 is considerably more but not really "twice" as many
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Hey Fuguzzi wasn't Bobby Heil Carmines trainer between Jack and Robbie
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Dont like saying you are wrong but i dont remember that at all I always remember Bobby on his own Used Joe Marsh alot Matter of fact Bobby was in a barn with me, Jerry Hade and Perry Steinkhol at YR after RR closed Now I do seem to recall there was a gap between Jack T and Bobby S so maybe Booby Hiel filled in with carmine for a while I had horses with Carmine 81 82 83 only because a partner of mine was a partner of someone else we had Columbia Lee nice 33000 claimer Evenings Choice basically an unsound 18/22k Bobby always seemed to have an attitude
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Evenings Choice basically an unsound 18/22k
Evenings Choice
Ah Yes, Or better known as "Oh White Foot" in Chicago.
He was the first good colt I can remember Nelson Willis having.
Hanging on my office wall is a picture of a colt of mine beating "White Foot" at Sportsman's Park in an IL. bred three year old stake from 1979.
"White Foot" is the exception to the hard, fast, and true axiom.
One white foot you tryum!
Two white feet you buyum!
Three white feet you sellum!
Four white feet you Cut Their Throat and Feedum To The Crows!
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Evenings Choice
Ah Yes, Or better known as "Oh White Foot" in Chicago.
He was the first good colt I can remember Nelson Willis having.
Hanging on my office wall is a picture of a colt of mine beating "White Foot" at Sportsman's Park in an IL. bred three year old stake from 1979.
"White Foot" is the exception to the hard, fast, and true axiom.
One white foot you tryum!
Two white feet you buyum!
Three white feet you sellum!
Four white et you Cut Their Throat and Feedum To The Crows!
Cool your remembering Evening's Choice! I do know the axiom too. Just not the feed em to the crows part. LOL
The partner who was close to Carmine. had horses for years with Graham and Willis and was also tight with Lew Williams. so he had his foot in 3 pools Chicago, NY, Ohio
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Cool your remembering Evening's Choice! I do know the axiom too. Just not the feed em to the crows part. LOL
The partner who was close to Carmine. had horses for years with Graham and Willis and was also tight with Lew Williams. so he had his foot in 3 pools Chicago, NY, Ohio
The partner who was close to Carmine. had horses for years with Graham and Willis and was also tight with Lew Williams. so he had his foot in 3 pools Chicago, NY, Ohio
DH?
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Endurance is the other half of greatness
You got that right.
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You got that right.
In and out, up and down, and on and off the track too.
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Bobby Heil trained for Carmine in 1973. I also knew Jack Tash.
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Bobby Heil trained for Carmine in 1973. I also knew Jack Tash.
Gotcha TY I was only 9 years old didnt know that we started in 75/76
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Try to get a 'catch driver' at Yonkers today. Not much a selection as it seems there are only about 12 drivers racing there!
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Try to get a 'catch driver' at Yonkers today. Not much a selection as it seems there are only about 12 drivers racing there!
Why is that? The money is good, and plenty of year round racing.