HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Grandstand Handicapper on March 18, 2024, 10:23:45 PM
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Ron Burke talks to Andy Cohen...
https://paulickreport.com/features/keeping-pace/keeping-pace-we-have-1950s-rules-with-2023-testing-it-just-doesnt-work-anymore
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He ain’t wrong.
The Ohio meth positives are getting ridiculous. I’ve heard there’s more that haven’t come out, over 30 of them. Seems unlikely that that many guys think they can get Meth through the box.
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What a BS article. The reason the testing is so stringent is because assholes like burke are stealing purses from other trainers and owners by manipulating the horses body chemistry. When strange shit shows up in blood and urine naturally you are now going to get questioned. You can't win almost half the races you enter every year with grooms and second trainers that barely know how to put the equipment on without some sort of advantage. He brought it on himself, how long can he take all the money and think nobody's looking. I know people that have worked for him and I know one person who pulled an empty vial he tossed.
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He is like Trump he should be able to do any thing laws and rules aren't meant for him.
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The Meth Positives are getting ridiculous? Clearly this is not from mere contact by a groom or meth user. The Meth is a source substance being used to mask something more nefarious, or its being used in higher concentrations and the wear down after racing is trace amounts. Either way, unless Ronnie is holding job fairs to hire grooms from the Kensington neighborhood in Philadelphia. I would say the Meth is a trace residue from something "new" being used.
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I have been racing horses for 50 years. Our horses drink water both where we train and also at every track we race at. They are also bedded on straw and eat hay and oats and breath air. Funny how we have never had 1 positive in all these years....wonder why???
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These aren't 1950 rules, if it was back in the 50's 60' 70's, if ya got days ya took them, there were no 6 or 7 month reprieves. It is totally different now just string it out and take a Jan vacation. I got a bute positive in the 1970's, I was notified on Sat night, ALL 6 horses were scratched, hearing on Tuesday. We figured out what happened, groom fed wrong horse. I happens. Still trainers responsibility, 10 days down to 7. ALL horses in to go scratched. Sure I'm not the only one, lol Should it really take long now, I understand the legal system, but really.
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this thread and topic just confirm the issues
some people think burke is a cheat and gets caught based on that
others say the testing for microscopic amounts of a allowed substance is way over the top
the industry needs to find a way to come up with an accepted process
what are the performance enhancing's drugs and how to test for them and at what levels
to disjointed and confusing the way it is right now
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The Trainer is the captain of the ship. Not the grooms. If the Captain doesn't keep his crew in order, then he goes down with the ship. (period)!
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Trainers never complain until they get caught and it starts to affect their pockets.
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How are the recent suspensions hurting Ron’s pocket? The show goes on. Mommy still writing him a check every week. He is living it up in Florida with Jen and Brian. Joey probably pops in from time to time to tag in
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The Meth Positives are getting ridiculous? Clearly this is not from mere contact by a groom or meth user. The Meth is a source substance being used to mask something more nefarious, or its being used in higher concentrations and the wear down after racing is trace amounts. Either way, unless Ronnie is holding job fairs to hire grooms from the Kensington neighborhood in Philadelphia. I would say the Meth is a trace residue from something "new" being used.
Methamphetamines, a class 1 drug that is pretty easy to detect is being used to mask something more nefarious? So if I’m on a ton of drugs I just gotta take a speed ball and I’ll pass a drug test? That’s the logic you’re going with?
there’s almost no overlap between a lot of the barns that have been getting the positives beyond they race and are stabled in Ohio. Also it’d be pretty easy for whoever is making this new pre race to realize that they are causing positives. Also if it’s metabolizing as methamphetamine then the source is probably highly regulated.
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Let’s break this down from a chemistry standpoint. First off these therapeutic drugs/ medications absolutely help sore, lame , any breathing,
Issues, arthritic & Tye up horses. They most benefit is to get them on board for as long as possible and then off load them while still getting the benefit of the medication. Where trainers get this pic, nano or trigram positive is from pushing the cut off window. Let’s use Akes positive at Delaware, now according to Gural , it’s just to sensitive of a test. Which is grossly inaccurate. Here’s how you get these minute positives. Ake went closer then 72 hrs with Dexamethozone, cut off is 72 hrs, so had he stopped at 72 hours there would have been zero detection, but he as they say pushed the envelope to 68 - 60 hrs. That’s why the low detection level. But Gural and Burke will have you believe this non performance enhancing, which again is just not true. Anytime you can alleviate any of the conditions these therapeutic drugs treat it’s going to improve a horse or human athlete’s performance. Now it’s not going to make a horse who’s bottom is 52 on a mile track that consistently paces home 27 n change all is sudden go in 50 home in 26 n change. Cause that horse without the therapeutic medication at all is most like hanging at 53 home in 28 n change. When the envelope is pushed and cut off window is pushed to exp Dex to 66 hrs then you get these low pic or nano gram positive.
As far as trying to blame tap water, no dice cause human athletes would be falling these test all over the country . There’s a little agency with 4 big letters that has the most thorough testing in the world, it’s named WADA.
Last point, ever single race commission has a caveat to beat any positive, if the trainer can show that the horse was guarded securely before said horse entered the paddock then said trainer is not responsible.
Guy who makes 20 million a year in purses should be able to drug test all his employees weekly, cause most horse race once a week, two he should be able to have all of his horses under 24 hr surveillance. Camera s in the barns, in the trailer s everywhere. Small ask to protect his 20 million dollar empire. But last time I heard Burke doesn’t even have Workmen’s Comps in NY.
Why leave it up to anyone but yourself
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All these motherfucking cheaters with their excuses. The best one was the glaucine positives...Oh, it was contamination positives from wood shavings. LOL!! Did any of these cocksuckers stop using shavings? Of course not. I knew the guy who was processing and delivering shavings to the farms where the trainers came up positive and I said to him, "I guess you will be losing some business because of the glaucine in the wood shavings", and he laughed for 5 minutes and said "business as usual".
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Let’s break this down from a chemistry standpoint. First off these therapeutic drugs/ medications absolutely help sore, lame , any breathing,
Issues, arthritic & Tye up horses. They most benefit is to get them on board for as long as possible and then off load them while still getting the benefit of the medication. Where trainers get this pic, nano or trigram positive is from pushing the cut off window. Let’s use Akes positive at Delaware, now according to Gural , it’s just to sensitive of a test. Which is grossly inaccurate. Here’s how you get these minute positives. Ake went closer then 72 hrs with Dexamethozone, cut off is 72 hrs, so had he stopped at 72 hours there would have been zero detection, but he as they say pushed the envelope to 68 - 60 hrs. That’s why the low detection level. But Gural and Burke will have you believe this non performance enhancing, which again is just not true. Anytime you can alleviate any of the conditions these therapeutic drugs treat it’s going to improve a horse or human athlete’s performance. Now it’s not going to make a horse who’s bottom is 52 on a mile track that consistently paces home 27 n change all is sudden go in 50 home in 26 n change. Cause that horse without the therapeutic medication at all is most like hanging at 53 home in 28 n change. When the envelope is pushed and cut off window is pushed to exp Dex to 66 hrs then you get these low pic or nano gram positive.
As far as trying to blame tap water, no dice cause human athletes would be falling these test all over the country . There’s a little agency with 4 big letters that has the most thorough testing in the world, it’s named WADA.
Last point, ever single race commission has a caveat to beat any positive, if the trainer can show that the horse was guarded securely before said horse entered the paddock then said trainer is not responsible.
Guy who makes 20 million a year in purses should be able to drug test all his employees weekly, cause most horse race once a week, two he should be able to have all of his horses under 24 hr surveillance. Camera s in the barns, in the trailer s everywhere. Small ask to protect his 20 million dollar empire. But last time I heard Burke doesn’t even have Workmen’s Comps in NY.
Why leave it up to anyone but yourself
Competing against these gural owned/Ake trained trotters is tough. The deck is so far stacked against you from the beginning
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All these motherfucking cheaters with their excuses. The best one was the glaucine positives...Oh, it was contamination positives from wood shavings. LOL!! Did any of these cocksuckers stop using shavings? Of course not. I knew the guy who was processing and delivering shavings to the farms where the trainers came up positive and I said to him, "I guess you will be losing some business because of the glaucine in the wood shavings", and he laughed for 5 minutes and said "business as usual".
I agree with you on the glausine. At Gaitway several of the smaller barns split the sawdust. R. Johnson had 3 very high positives. (Bearding for Bongo before little Jen became a trainer). Silva had no positives using the same load of sawdust. More importantly Rubber Duck won the Yonkers open for fun the night he tested positive. After he couldn’t win a NW of 20k. Oh and look at S. Elliot’s long term suspension in NJ. One of the products list from the barn search was…glaucine. ???????
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Here is an interesting tid bit. Virgil Morgan races a shit ton of horses all over the country. We don't see him with multiple positives? What do you think the difference is?
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Again Im no expert-but I read and listen to real experts.
The Glaucine positives were swept under the rug because of big names(Burke) involved. Experts stated that Glaucine came from the tulip tree sawdust-and contained similar alkaloids-to glaucine-easily detected. So if a horse was actually treated with just Glaucine-and no other alkaloids present in the test-IT WASNT FROM EATING PISSED ON SAWDUST. I visit my horses regularly-and --Ive never seen them eat shitloads of sawdust. So all these trainers received 0 penalty-( One small trainer with v high levels was made the scapegoat) the others walked.(Burke)
I do agree with Burke on one point---a few PICROGRAMS of anything cannot and does not-affect a horses performance--so a waste of resources to call these a positive and a blight on the Industry.
--but Lawyers and administrators love it.
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What makes no sense to me is each groom rubs 5 horses. If it is contamination why only 1 of the horses? I'm sick of everyone using the contamination excuse.
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What makes no sense to me is each groom rubs 5 horses. If it is contamination why only 1 of the horses? I'm sick of everyone using the contamination excuse.
True--but just someone touching a horse--or another horses sniffing it with its nose etc--will transfer a few Picograms.(one trillionth of a gram)-so small you would need an electron microscope to see it. Even a mouse couldn't see it.
The machines they use today are ridiculously sensitive. Needs to stop and start calling real positives only.
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True--but just someone touching a horse--or another horses sniffing it with its nose etc--will transfer a few Picograms.(one trillionth of a gram)-so small you would need an electron microscope to see it. Even a mouse couldn't see it.
The machines they use today are ridiculously sensitive. Needs to stop and start calling real positives only.
There is no valid reason for a horse to have any trace such as a picogram or less of non FDA approved equine drugs in their system. My opinion is the blocking agents they are using are sometimes not 100% effective so a minute amount gets detected. Also, why should a trainer get a pass because the "detected" amount is not performance enhancing. Several of these drugs that trainers are coming up positive with are street drugs and are illegal in any quantity to possess. It you get pulled over by a cop and he finds a trace of meth or fentanyl on your person, you're headed to jail.
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Mike--I agree no horse should have any non FDA drug in its system. However there are mitigating circumstances and now HISA has seen the light and is throwing 90% of these out. Take one non approved equine drug-Gapapentin. It can stay in a horses system FAR longer than any therapeutic effect Im told. eg-Burke was on a Farm in Plainridge and the owners old horse was on cancer treatment for pain -with Gapapentin pills in its feed. This horse then became a source of contamination because the owner simply touching a feed bucket or water bucket-or touching Burkes horse-or the horse simply being in the neighborhood--he got a positive of 5 picograms. Same with Nancy Takter---Manchego--another one-along with others all of a sudden in OHIO. Since then rules have changed and there is now a threshold because it has been determined that these were in fact-contamination positives. Ypu dont destroy careers and horses-by these BS positives.
You put people in jail or stop cheating--by wiretaps or out of competition testing--drug testing for the most part--didnt put the current crop of cheaters in Jail.
Furher Mike--there is no way on earth any masking drug you refer to-"hiding" oxy fentanyl etc--impossible--and thats straight from WADA.
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maybe the burke brigade should start testing their help. other companies and employers do this in order to get a job.
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Mike--I agree no horse should have any non FDA drug in its system. However there are mitigating circumstances and now HISA has seen the light and is throwing 90% of these out. Take one non approved equine drug-Gapapentin. It can stay in a horses system FAR longer than any therapeutic effect Im told. eg-Burke was on a Farm in Plainridge and the owners old horse was on cancer treatment for pain -with Gapapentin pills in its feed. This horse then became a source of contamination because the owner simply touching a feed bucket or water bucket-or touching Burkes horse-or the horse simply being in the neighborhood--he got a positive of 5 picograms. Same with Nancy Takter---Manchego--another one-along with others all of a sudden in OHIO. Since then rules have changed and there is now a threshold because it has been determined that these were in fact-contamination positives. Ypu dont destroy careers and horses-by these BS positives.
You put people in jail or stop cheating--by wiretaps or out of competition testing--drug testing for the most part--didnt put the current crop of cheaters in Jail.
Furher Mike--there is no way on earth any masking drug you refer to-"hiding" oxy fentanyl etc--impossible--and thats straight from WADA.
Believe what you want, they are masking drugs like oxy and fentanyl.
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Now its an owner with cancer touching a feed tub !!! That ranks right up there with a horse eating 2 1/2 bu of sawdust.
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What makes no sense to me is each groom rubs 5 horses. If it is contamination why only 1 of the horses? I'm sick of everyone using the contamination excuse.
All 5 horses aren't tested every week.
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They have more excuses than a shirt pocket
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What a BS article. The reason the testing is so stringent is because assholes like burke are stealing purses from other trainers and owners by manipulating the horses body chemistry. When strange shit shows up in blood and urine naturally you are now going to get questioned. You can't win almost half the races you enter every year with grooms and second trainers that barely know how to put the equipment on without some sort of advantage. He brought it on himself, how long can he take all the money and think nobody's looking. I know people that have worked for him and I know one person who pulled an empty vial he tossed.
TRUTH. Spot on.
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Methamphetamines, a class 1 drug that is pretty easy to detect is being used to mask something more nefarious? So if I’m on a ton of drugs I just gotta take a speed ball and I’ll pass a drug test? That’s the logic you’re going with?
there’s almost no overlap between a lot of the barns that have been getting the positives beyond they race and are stabled in Ohio. Also it’d be pretty easy for whoever is making this new pre race to realize that they are causing positives. Also if it’s metabolizing as methamphetamine then the source is probably highly regulated.
So are you saying you believe its trace residue from mere contact, by a groom passer by or pissing in a stall? No I'm not saying take a 8 ball to pass a drug test. What I am saying is, that too many positives for meth are coming up, all over. So YES its being used in some substantiate for or fashion, and NO its not a therapeutic. Its outright getting a horse high to run off the charts.
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Mike--I agree no horse should have any non FDA drug in its system. However there are mitigating circumstances and now HISA has seen the light and is throwing 90% of these out. Take one non approved equine drug-Gapapentin. It can stay in a horses system FAR longer than any therapeutic effect Im told. eg-Burke was on a Farm in Plainridge and the owners old horse was on cancer treatment for pain -with Gapapentin pills in its feed. This horse then became a source of contamination because the owner simply touching a feed bucket or water bucket-or touching Burkes horse-or the horse simply being in the neighborhood--he got a positive of 5 picograms. Same with Nancy Takter---Manchego--another one-along with others all of a sudden in OHIO. Since then rules have changed and there is now a threshold because it has been determined that these were in fact-contamination positives. Ypu dont destroy careers and horses-by these BS positives.
You put people in jail or stop cheating--by wiretaps or out of competition testing--drug testing for the most part--didnt put the current crop of cheaters in Jail.
Furher Mike--there is no way on earth any masking drug you refer to-"hiding" oxy fentanyl etc--impossible--and thats straight from WADA.
If that’s how it happened which it didn’t , that’s Burke’s fault, trainer responsible, failure to guard your horse. He makes 20 million a year and can’t have his own employees taking care of his horses. Have his employees feeding them taking care of them. He’s always going on and on about he’s the beast and no one else could do what his done but he can’t manage something as simple as his people having the only access to his horses.
Try this from 1950 harness racing, grooms traveled with there horse slept outside the stalls had full control and took full care of them on the road. Guess what they didn’t have these kinds of things happen then
But when something happens we come up with horse dying of cancer did it.
That’s has clsssic as banana in the tail pipe.
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All 5 horses aren't tested every week.
tmbz1 fair point. I don't trust Burke, Engblom, Bongiorno, Pelling, Toscano, Alexander, & many others.
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Here is an interesting tid bit. Virgil Morgan races a shit ton of horses all over the country. We don't see him with multiple positives? What do you think the difference is?
Virgil had a lull for a couple years in between but generally speaking he does what the rules allow for.
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This entire who is OK and who is not is 100% subjective in nature. Personally, I would have no problem with sending a horse to Linda Toscano and anyone who would scrutinize an owner for selecting her would is making it "personal" and not justifiable. What are you going to say? That she's obviously cheating? Because she does "too good" so to speak. Pelling, well, he has some history there, but so do many others. Holloway? Is he OK? Alagna? Where does it begin and where does it end?
I think Burke is being very transparent. Self-serving and a lot of fluff. If a trainer has overages for clenbuterol, or some therapeutic use drug, sliding scale, and eventually you have to make it hurt. Couple that with holding owners accountable, sliding scale as well, and now you are talking about real change. But if a trainer has a positive test for some exotic or designer drug, or something that has not right being in a horse -- throw the book at them. Contamination? Yes, it happens. But cut the BS that my groom takes this, or my owner takes that. The beards are another issue, related, but another issue. If you suspend trainer A, do what NYRA did to Dutrow -- audit their books, follow the money, tap their phones, etc. -- and if they get caught paper-training, training from the shadows, etc. -- add a lot more time and money onto the suspension. Again, now you are talking real change. Yes, much harder to do with fewer and fewer "track stable areas" and "backstretches" and more horses being on farms. Hire more investigators! Do your friggin' job! If you don't, eventually I hope HISA will!