I'm trying to understand

[Fuguzzi]

In an earlier thread started by Larry B B, he discussed outing the cheating trainers AND the owners who patronize them. OK. I say, I am all for that, no problem.

But here's my question. Why don't we ever talk about penalizing the drivers who make their living off them. We make owners refund purse money. We penalize trainers with suspensions and fines, some say not heavily enough. We have seen trainers and vets even go to prison. But the drivers WHO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON AND SOMETIMES WORK IN CONCERT WITH THE TRAINER, goes merrily right along on his way. 50 years in and I still don't get that.

Rene Allard goes to prison and Simon Allard, the weirdo, keeps right on truckin'. Weren't they both part of "Team Allard"? Yet to see Georgie Nap. turn down an Oakes gassed freak knowing full well it would blast down the pike and off the screen at Pocono. I like George Brennan alot, but when I heard him say that he "would be done" if they ever find what Pena uses, I had to look at him sideways
 Seems like everyone gets penalized but the driver.

We take money back from owners, why not the drivers. Easy to trace and do, unlike the impossible idea of returning money to the bettors who didn't wager on said "cheater's horse" Cmon guys, where would that money come from and who would it go to in pari - mutuel racing?

Explain to me why the drivers, who klnow what's going on and befeit directly from it, should not also be penalized in their pocketbooks?
You all know, I have raced and knwo people and when I bring it up to "certain guys" they just laugh and say, "C'mon, you know what it is" Yeah, I know. I also know we have 150 people in the grandstand.

[Generation XYZ]

This good be one of the best context of late.  The trickle down is not just trainers, owners, but also drivers, and on the other side jockeys. the massive spread of this cancer in horse racing as a whole, is far reaching. The betting public, has "some" understanding of whats going on, and largely choose off or conform they're bets accordingly. While the general public hears of these instances and will always think of horse racing less as the sport of kings, and more as the sport of cheats!

[Dingus]

All the purse money has to be returned- owner, trainer, driver.
And all the horses that move up due to the dq, those owners, trainers, and drivers get paid the difference.

[Fuguzzi]

I feel very foolish and apologize to those who had to suffer my ignorance. I didn't realize the state recovers the driver's money. maybe cause i never had a post race positive or suspension.

I foolishly thought the drivers as free agents were immune since they could say they didn't know anything and someone had to drive the horse. My bad!

[Fuguzzi]

Just one other point, I get the fact NOW, ty, that drivers return their cut, but the original main thrust of my point was that no one makes an effort to truly call out these drivers. The ones that drive for the cheaters. They never suffer any humiliation or suspension when many acknowledge they know full well what is going on. often enough they hook up beard trainers or surrogates with "THE POWER". Mike LaChance jumps right to mind......So a driver gives back a purse or 2 once the trainer is caught. what about the hundreds of 5%s he already banked?

[ferdinand the bull]

Just one other point, I get the fact NOW, ty, that drivers return their cut, but the original main thrust of my point was that no one makes an effort to truly call out these drivers. The ones that drive for the cheaters. They never suffer any humiliation or suspension when many acknowledge they know full well what is going on. often enough they hook up beard trainers or surrogates with "THE POWER". Mike LaChance jumps right to mind......So a driver gives back a purse or 2 once the trainer is caught. what about the hundreds of 5%s he already banked?

Take Bongiorno and Simon Allard, even the Beckwith kid , where would their careers be if they didn't start out driving turbo charged horses?

[theokodjak26]

This is a complicated subject as you dig deeper. Follow this scenario…I am a patient who uses opioids and cocaine regularly. I go to my doctor because of a bad cold. Upon examining me and taking blood he realizes I am taking illegal drugs that are effecting my health negatively. What is the doctor to do? He knows the patient’s wife and his parents and wants to inform them but cannot by law. Tough situation right? Now let’s take my story and substitute a trainer, vets, drivers, owners and the horse. And maybe we include track management that doesn’t want to spend too much money for testing and doesn’t want any negative publicity. Ok ploppers where do you want to begin? I am sure a vet can recognize a drugged up animal through examinations and bloodwork. Does the vet go to management? If he doesn’t will you be fining him too? And if the word gets out that management tolerates drugging do you expect the track to get fined with a suspension of their license to operate? And if owners are not directly paying vet bills that include illegal drugs how will you find them guilty through rumors and innuendo? And how are you going to prove that drivers have knowledge of drugging without proof? In my opinion of all this talk of fining drivers and owners without proof is fruitless. And what about the veterinary people who do see sick horses and do nothing? No the real answers to this problem lie with the fans. They stop going to the tracks. They stop betting as much. They stop becoming owners. The fans realize the industry refuses to take the appropriate actions to end drugging like “one and done”. In the end harness racing will die. Thoroughbred racing will begin a further fade when or if the big media stops covering major races due to it’s reputation for allowing cheats. This is why, for now, the fans flock to casinos, fantasy sports, their home computers etc. etc. My advice is give up thinking our sport can be turned around. Not enough powerful people are interested.

[Brown jug]

cant follow this logic all all
the driver in 99% of the cases has nothing to do with the training of the horse
lets be clear the care of the horse is 100% on the trainer, not drivers  and not owners etc
if the powers that be allow a trainer to be licensed and open for business than people may send their horses to any such individual

stop trying to shift the blame/responsibility

here is an idea, make the penalties significant enough that trainers are not tempted to cheat
i do not have enough knowledge to determine what infractions are major etc

but try this , the first major infraction in which you are proven guilty is a 90 day suspension and a $100 k fine
the second major infraction is goodbye, never to be licensed again and no part in the business
treat a trainers license like a privilege not a right and you might get things fixed

but i suspect it will never happen

[Fuguzzi]

cant follow this logic all all
the driver in 99% of the cases has nothing to do with the training of the horse
lets be clear the care of the horse is 100% on the trainer, not drivers  and not owners etc
if the powers that be allow a trainer to be licensed and open for business than people may send their horses to any such individual

stop trying to shift the blame/responsibility

here is an idea, make the penalties significant enough that trainers are not tempted to cheat
i do not have enough knowledge to determine what infractions are major etc

but try this , the first major infraction in which you are proven guilty is a 90 day suspension and a $100 k fine
the second major infraction is goodbye, never to be licensed again and no part in the business
treat a trainers license like a privilege not a right and you might get things fixed

but i suspect it will never happen

Hey BY With all due respect and keeping in mind I generally like and agree with what you say, I musr clarify one thing and then somewhat disagree.

I never attempted to shift blame. I was attempting to include drivers who consistently made big money driving for the same trainer/s kmowing full well their horses were not on the up and up. Many examples have already been pointed out in this thread. To say that
99%  percent of the time the driver is not involved is disengenuous. Of course they do and they want those drives and will stab other drivers in the back. Drivers have recommended to their main trainers to claim or claimed it for themselves since the first days of racing.

[Fuguzzi]

Hey BJ! Not BY, sorry

I love your suggestions as far as fines and suspensions.

In the days of catch drivers who had their own stables and they all did, I always hated the BS of listing their wife as trainer p or listing an assistant as trainer so they could go right on driving. I understood it, but hated it because it basically told everyone, I AM FUCKING AROUND, so Wendy or Mary Ellen or Andre or Donnie can take the days and I'll just slot someone else in. Most of the major drivers with access to "power" have built many trainers careers, as well as trainer's who have built driver's careers. I said it before and I will say it again - LaChance big time is just one example.

[theokodjak26]

After reading the first two posts I interpreted the posts that drivers may have some culpability in the knowledge of drugging. My point is there are others that may be aware of this and really have no viable recourse to end drugging. My question is how can you end the drugging if even the track management turns their backs to it? Clearly most states and tracks don’t care enough and the fans know it. The best example is Pocono Downs where for years have let the cheats frolic around without any fears. What has happened is the fans have doled out the punishments by not going and not betting their product. All the fines and weak suspensions are not working as we read every week when they are published.

[White Rabbit]

So which drivers are we holding accountable for the trainer’s actions. Are you saying that the drivers are actually in the barn when the horses are getting treated, because that’s the only way you can say that a driver are a part of the
Problem. Why aren’t those of you on here who seem to know these gassing trainers not going to the commission , Media with the proof. Are you including the trainers who get these batch positives and depending on which trainers they are , get nothing or blasted. Case in point the Affrin positive 8 yrs ago from most of the trainers at Golden Shoe. But the Glacine involving all the elite trainers that were thrown out.
How about the Race Offices that when all these miracles are being performed start refusing entries or set up 24 barns.
Drivers by the way take the biggest risk as well, don’t see trainers, grooms or bettors getting busted up on the racetrack.
Drivers are not the racing police.

[Mazola]

So which drivers are we holding accountable for the trainer’s actions. Are you saying that the drivers are actually in the barn when the horses are getting treated, because that’s the only way you can say that a driver are a part of the
Problem. Why aren’t those of you on here who seem to know these gassing trainers not going to the commission , Media with the proof. Are you including the trainers who get these batch positives and depending on which trainers they are , get nothing or blasted. Case in point the Affrin positive 8 yrs ago from most of the trainers at Golden Shoe. But the Glacine involving all the elite trainers that were thrown out.
How about the Race Offices that when all these miracles are being performed start refusing entries or set up 24 barns.
Drivers by the way take the biggest risk as well, don’t see trainers, grooms or bettors getting busted up on the racetrack.
Drivers are not the racing police.

 

[Fuguzzi]

Well, every time I talk about Tony Morgan, I hear how he went around with his "little black bag" helping horses he was going to drive. And that he was very good at it. I can't speak to that. No first hand knowledge of Chicago racing. Just using an example.

Do I know for a fact that, in my day, certain big time catch drivers helped trainers "take off"? Absolutely. A driver need not be present that very afternoon, to still be a conduit for drugs into a trainer's barn. I am not speaking of the cream of the cheaters, some of which have "made" driver's careers. I am talking about the dozens of lesser trainers who suddenly became Stanley Dancer, at least statistically when they took up with certain drivers. And just how do we separate "Team Allard" Another example.

I already mentioned Mike LaChance as one who helped many trainers back in the day and certainly one HOFer will all know and love.

Yes you are correct, the drivers need not be the racing police, but at the same time should they be "receivers of stolen goods"?

[LAW AND ORDER]

So which drivers are we holding accountable for the trainer’s actions. Are you saying that the drivers are actually in the barn when the horses are getting treated, because that’s the only way you can say that a driver are a part of the
Problem. Why aren’t those of you on here who seem to know these gassing trainers not going to the commission , Media with the proof. Are you including the trainers who get these batch positives and depending on which trainers they are , get nothing or blasted. Case in point the Affrin positive 8 yrs ago from most of the trainers at Golden Shoe. But the Glacine involving all the elite trainers that were thrown out.
How about the Race Offices that when all these miracles are being performed start refusing entries or set up 24 barns.
Drivers by the way take the biggest risk as well, don’t see trainers, grooms or bettors getting busted up on the racetrack.
Drivers are not the racing police.

I WANT TO CHIME IN WITH THIS. I HAVE OFTEN HEARD MY DRIVER SAY TO THE TRAINER, ARE WE ALL SET, HES FEELING GOOD AND READY TO GO. NOW EXACTLY WHAT DO YOU THINK MY DRIVER MEANT BY SAYING THAT? AGAIN, ITS HARD TO PROVE BUT HE KNOWS WHEN THE HORSE HAS THE SHIT IN HIS SYSTEM.