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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: makingit on November 12, 2021, 06:24:51 PM
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The horses competing at Delaware Fair 09/23/21 had too much juice in them. The amount exceeded the Regulatory Threshold. Both are appealing the ruling. Wouldn't they have sent a sample of the blood to their own lab by now? I guess they are hoping a retest shows a lower amount and acceptable amount in the blood. We will see? Big bucks at stake though, $43,000.00 and $23,000.00. Wonder if they have a chance of reversal? I did not think Julie was like that. Maybe the lab made a mistake.
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The horses competing at Delaware Fair 09/23/21 had too much juice in them. The amount exceeded the Regulatory Threshold. Both are appealing the ruling. Wouldn't they have sent a sample of the blood to their own lab by now? I guess they are hoping a retest shows a lower amount and acceptable amount in the blood. We will see? Big bucks at stake though, $43,000.00 and $23,000.00. Wonder if they have a chance of reversal? I did not think Julie was like that. Maybe the lab made a mistake.
I did not think Julie was like that. Maybe the lab made a mistake.
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The only mistake the lab may have made, was that they under reported the dosage. JEFF GURAL'S EMPLOYEE caught yet again. Another environmental contamination excuse on the way? I have said this from day one, if they didn't have chemically enhanced horses, the Miller's would be homeless. By the way, if you look at the next ruling, Payton Ode got caught using the same drug as Julie Miller. Granted his test was higher than hers, but he gets a 30 day suspension, the glaucine queen just gets a $1,000 fine?
Sincerely, Silent One
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The real issue here is the drug regulatory committee that runs the allowable medications and withdrawal times. It's all made up by the phoney ARCI commission. They won't tell you the science behind the limits and withdrawal times because they just make everything up as they go along. Here is the rule right from their website.
Dexamethasone
Harness Racing Only.
5 picograms per milliliter
of plasma or serum
SEE NOTE
BELOW
72 hours
Intramuscular and intravenous
administration of
dexamethasone sodium
phosphate or oral
administration of
dexamethasone at
0.05milligrams per kilogram
regardless of route
RMTC study
Applicable analyte is
dexamethasone in
plasma or serum.
They catch people on allowable (Class 4) medications and never catch anyone using epogen, Soda, or anything that finds the real drugs like the ones all the trainers at Yonkers were finally caught using thanks to the FBI. The ARCI is a joke. Can't wait for them to be out of business and the Fed's take over. Can't happen soon enough. Good Riddins
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They just got caught not the first and won´t be the last.
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The real issue here is the drug regulatory committee that runs the allowable medications and withdrawal times. It's all made up by the phoney ARCI commission. They won't tell you the science behind the limits and withdrawal times because they just make everything up as they go along. Here is the rule right from their website.
Dexamethasone
Harness Racing Only.
5 picograms per milliliter
of plasma or serum
SEE NOTE
BELOW
72 hours
Intramuscular and intravenous
administration of
dexamethasone sodium
phosphate or oral
administration of
dexamethasone at
0.05milligrams per kilogram
regardless of route
RMTC study
Applicable analyte is
dexamethasone in
plasma or serum.
They catch people on allowable (Class 4) medications and never catch anyone using epogen, Soda, or anything that finds the real drugs like the ones all the trainers at Yonkers were finally caught using thanks to the FBI. The ARCI is a joke. Can't wait for them to be out of business and the Fed's take over. Can't happen soon enough. Good Riddins
GREAT POST!!
Fully agree--the line between real cheaters-and those innocently falling amiss to overzealous drug level enforcemnt-needs to be addressed.
The problem in racing which seems to fly over everyones head is HOW ON EARTH ARE THESE MEDICATIONS CLASSIFIED??
Are they peer reviewed?? Shouldnt the obvious be that ANY MEDICATION PROVEN (I repeat proven)TO AFFECT THE OUTCOME OF A RACE-be of prime importance?? Not just based on opinions or a alab with equipment so advanced that it can detect a drug from when you were a baby?
Here we have a medication of dexamethasone when found at a concentration greater than 5pg/ml-results in a positive.
Let examine this.
1 picrogram is ONE TRILLIONTH OF A GRAM--that is a 1 with 12- zeros behind it.
If you gave a horse a dose of 10ml dexamethazone-that would be 20 mg--or 1/50th of a gram or 2x10with 10 zeros behind it=20 billion picrograms.
A horse has around 30 litres of blood-=30,000ml-so each ml has about 3/4 million PICROGRAMS!at start.
Thanks to modern technolgy with testing ability to find levels that would not affect a little mouse-let alone a horse-levels incredibly low and with no effect on the performance of a horse can result in serious loss of money,reputation ,and suspension.
Now in the case of julie Miller-her horse had 68pg/ml/--not 3/4 Million at the onset which would affect the horse.
So it seems logical that for the levels to have gone down from 3/4 million pg/ml to 68pg/ml-it had to be given a long way out from the race.
At least the required 3 days-and 68pg/ml of this medication would not and cannot affect a horses performance..
Now individuals vary in retention times--but to suspend and sully a trainer for this incredibly low amount is ridiculous--and how the administrators in Sport get away with this is problematic-and the public now doesnt know the difference between a real cheat-and someone who played by the rules but is a victim of ridiculously low standards with regards to medication.
Reviews by knowlegable people who can appreciate when a drug or medication is actually affecting performance--should be instituted as fast as possible.
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Great post Bond.
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Thanks Bond. I feel that you fully understand the process. The ARCI is setting people up to fail with their ridiculous medication rules. Every week we see dexamethasone positive's along with Robaxin (Methocarbamol) which in most cases is administered by a vet. (At least in our barn). The vet tells you the wait time which I double because I don't trust the ARCI, and people are still getting in trouble. I for one don't think that Julie Miller is not stupid enough to use something that will cost her a fine and suspension. Where does trainer responsibilty end and veterinarian responsibilty start? The real shame in all this is that I spoke to one of the scientist that worked for and set up the allowable medications and withdrawal times for the ARCI and what he told me was a total shock. He recommended the the allowable level for robaxin (Methocarbamol) be set at 2000 picograms. Then the state of Pennsylvania told the ARCI that they could detect it at 1 picogram and wanted the level for penalty set at 1 picogram and thats what the ARCI did with no science involved, they just wanted the financial support from the state. Just to be clear I'm the first one in line to support the idea of clean racing as my horses would do better not having to race against whatever it is that trainers use to cheat. If they don't want trainers to use anything, then just make that the rule. These class 4 medications are used to help horses get over sickness and soundness issues, not make them superstars. It is the trainers responsibilty to have a horse sound and at their best on race day otherwise we are just defrauding the public. The system is backwards for sure.
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Stand Forever.. do you actually own or train race horses?
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great info guys
i agree that there needs to be distinction between some of these penalties
are ARCI suggesting these kinds of penalties are the same as what surrick and oakes were doing, please not even close
just a question, the scenario you provide sounds similar to what baffart is claiming, not trying to support baffart who seems to be on the edge but ??
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Brown Jug.... The penalties are more severe for Class 1, 2, and 3, medications then they are for Class 4 therapeutic medications. I think that Baffert was fined and suspended for Betamethasone which is a class 4 medication. The vet's use that medication when they inject a horses joint for inflammation. The fact that the drug manufacturer admitted that the drug could show up in a test for longer than 7 days (Which is the guidance wait time for withdrawal from the ARCI) is a problem for every trainer. The vet says wait 7 days, you do and you still get in trouble? What kind of guidance is that? Even the ARCI says it could last 30 days or more if the betamethasone gets into any muscle or tissue. Like I said earlier, the system is rigged against the trainers who follow the rules. The trainers that were caught that you mentioned (Surick, Allard, Etc..) weren't caught by anything that the ARCI is doing. They were caught by the FBI. They actually have testing that really works unlike the ARCI.
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great info guys
i agree that there needs to be distinction between some of these penalties
are ARCI suggesting these kinds of penalties are the same as what surrick and oakes were doing, please not even close
just a question, the scenario you provide sounds similar to what baffart is claiming, not trying to support baffart who seems to be on the edge but ??
Exactly Brown Jug. Therapeutic medications should not result in severe penalties-or penalties costing thousands of dollars and suspensions.
Your question on Baffert--here is my answer
Baffert had 17 pg/ml of betamathasone.
The horse has 30,000ml of blood so that would equal 510,000 picrograms total. This is 0.0005mg of Betamethasone horse had in his system at time of event..
The doasage for Betamethasone is 9mg in a horse.
See the difference?? 9mg vs 0.0005mg ---its humungous and suggests the therapeutc value had long since worn off.
Giving 0.0005mg of Betamethasone- that amount would not affect a tiny mouse let alone a horse.
To take the Kentucky Derby off Baffert--or Suspend Baffert racing ANY of his horses in New York-IMHO is nonsensical and to let the public believe that the horse was "DOPED" in my opinion is criminal,sickening,and contrary to everything that honest trainers strive for.
Now take Surick and the other criminals medication violations.
They were strictly using performance enhancers like EPO and the like. Drugs that should not be in a horse at any time at ANY level.
THAT is what needs to be addressed and those using them held accountable.
Therapeutic drugs should never result in loss of purse or prizemeony--but instead fines--increasing with repeat offenses.
Overzealous Laboratories and their directors- are guilty of bringing the game into disrepute just as much as the cheats.
The effect of severe penalties for therapeutic drugs--only makes the Chemical trainers-search for and use drugs that are not detectable and there are many.The honest trainers are left with using 0-while the cheaters use a plethora of illegal medications.
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Now we are going to judge who is cheating and which cheating is acceptable. So the Millers etc are being treated the same as Oakes and Surrick, I don´t think so, Oakes and company are going to jail and loosing all the money, Millers etc, have to give the purse back. Think they get off easy
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thank you bond and horsepower
i have learned something useful on horseplop
who knew??!!
jupiter, i suggest you review some of the posts by the two noted above and you will understand the difference
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Exactly Brown Jug. Therapeutic medications should not result in severe penalties-or penalties costing thousands of dollars and suspensions.
Your question on Baffert--here is my answer
Baffert had 17 pg/ml of betamathasone.
The horse has 30,000ml of blood so that would equal 510,000 picrograms total. This is 0.0005mg of Betamethasone horse had in his system at time of event..
The doasage for Betamethasone is 9mg in a horse.
See the difference?? 9mg vs 0.0005mg ---its humungous and suggests the therapeutc value had long since worn off.
Giving 0.0005mg of Betamethasone- that amount would not affect a tiny mouse let alone a horse.
To take the Kentucky Derby off Baffert--or Suspend Baffert racing ANY of his horses in New York-IMHO is nonsensical and to let the public believe that the horse was "DOPED" in my opinion is criminal,sickening,and contrary to everything that honest trainers strive for.
Now take Surick and the other criminals medication violations.
They were strictly using performance enhancers like EPO and the like. Drugs that should not be in a horse at any time at ANY level.
THAT is what needs to be addressed and those using them held accountable.
Therapeutic drugs should never result in loss of purse or prizemeony--but instead fines--increasing with repeat offenses.
Overzealous Laboratories and their directors- are guilty of bringing the game into disrepute just as much as the cheats.
The effect of severe penalties for therapeutic drugs--only makes the Chemical trainers-search for and use drugs that are not detectable and there are many.The honest trainers are left with using 0-while the cheaters use a plethora of illegal medications.
Your logic is horribly flawed. The horse tested at 17Pg/Ml. Based on your theory of 30,000 Ml in a horse the total level would be 510,000 Pg in the horses system
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Besides what is in the muscles fat etc
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And you might want to reread the indictments. One of the makers of the drugs warned you might get a Dex positive. And this ain’t the first for Miller
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Your logic is horribly flawed. The horse tested at 17Pg/Ml. Based on your theory of 30,000 Ml in a horse the total level would be 510,000 Pg in the horses system
Stan--510,00 PICROGRAMS in his system EQUALS 0.0005mg at the time he raced---does ANYONE ANYWHERE believe that 0.0005mg has any effect on a horse-ie affect his performance??
The clearance levels are set too low IMHO
Ill wait.
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does ANYONE ANYWHERE believe that 0.0005mg has any effect on a horse-ie affect his performance??
The clearance levels are set too low IMHO
Ill wait.
It's like being a little bit pregnant.
Right?
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Cop stops me… you were going 55 in a 40 zone. I tell him this a straight road with no houses within 3 miles and the speed limit should be 55. Sorry , its the law, here is the ticket. Tell the judge the same thing. Sorry its the law, 3 points, $100 fine and $100 surcharge.
ITS THE LAW, STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM YOUR HORSES WITH THIS STUFF
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Cop stops me… you were going 55 in a 40 zone. I tell him this a straight road with no houses within 3 miles and the speed limit should be 55. Sorry , its the law, here is the ticket. Tell the judge the same thing. Sorry its the law, 3 points, $100 fine and $100 surcharge.
ITS THE LAW, STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM YOUR HORSES WITH THIS STUFF
TBred guys like Baffy love to say the same thing when they get popped. People are sick and tired of hearing them tell us that rules aren't fair.
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It's like being a little bit pregnant.
Right?
No--wrong-Betamethasone IS allowed---its not 0-- levels above 5pg/ml-ie an "overage" will result in a positive.
Officials and racing administrators are under the gun to outlaw "cheats" to improve integrity of racing and make bettors belive everything is on the up and up.
They cant catch the real cheats-that is the chemists in the game--you need the FBI for that.
So whats happening-they take therapeutic drugs that they know are being used extensively and easy to test for-make levels insanely LOW-and make a huge fanfare when they catch someone--preferably someone like Baffert--much publicity--OR they take a poor trainer and throw the book at him make him a "scapegoat"--so people think that they are doing a great job.
The general public--including many on this site-dont seem to make a distinction between a therapeutic drug-used to make horses healthier-OR a performance enhancer like EPO-or what the indicted were using --to cheat.
Cant blame the public-they are not scientists--all they hear is the word "drug" and the haters are off to the races. This is how the officials get away with this BS dupe the public while the real cheats remain at large -which needs to end ASAP. Make "overages" sensible to allow honest trainers do their job- and let the FBI go after the cheats. Laboratories --are secondary as the drug cheats over the last 100 or more years--are always a step ahead.
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Bond: Your logic and examples makes sense, but I'm no scientist. You have to understand that this place is comprised of mostly haters, so logic does not really play into most subjects.
It is a lot like arguing politics. People have their minds made up, and reasoning is not a factor.
Thanks for your perspective.
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No--wrong-Betamethasone IS allowed---its not 0-- levels above 5pg/ml-ie an "overage" will result in a positive.
Officials and racing administrators are under the gun to outlaw "cheats" to improve integrity of racing and make bettors belive everything is on the up and up.
They cant catch the real cheats-that is the chemists in the game--you need the FBI for that.
So whats happening-they take therapeutic drugs that they know are being used extensively and easy to test for-make levels insanely LOW-and make a huge fanfare when they catch someone--preferably someone like Baffert--much publicity--OR they take a poor trainer and throw the book at him make him a "scapegoat"--so people think that they are doing a great job.
The general public--including many on this site-dont seem to make a distinction between a therapeutic drug-used to make horses healthier-OR a performance enhancer like EPO-or what the indicted were using --to cheat.
Cant blame the public-they are not scientists--all they hear is the word "drug" and the haters are off to the races. This is how the officials get away with this BS dupe the public while the real cheats remain at large -which needs to end ASAP. Make "overages" sensible to allow honest trainers do their job- and let the FBI go after the cheats. Laboratories --are secondary as the drug cheats over the last 100 or more years--are always a step ahead.
Oh please.
"overages"
"drug"
"scapegoat"
"cheats"
You try to turn those words into a kinda, sorta, no biggie deal slang in order to rationalize, excuse and normalize bad actions.
You claim you know better than me. Trust me, I know FAR more about this than you.
I'm no scientist.
Right.
Now, please, Fuck all the way off.
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Bond: Your logic and examples makes sense, but I'm no scientist. You have to understand that this place is comprised of mostly haters, so logic does not really play into most subjects.
It is a lot like arguing politics. People have their minds made up, and reasoning is not a factor.
Thanks for your perspective.
Can you explain the logic in "zero tolerance" from Jeff Gural regarding Lou Pena's non banned race day meds overages and today's 100% tolerance when his own trainers get popped?
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Oh please.
"overages"
"drug"
"scapegoat"
"cheats"
You try to turn those words into a kinda, sorta, no biggie deal slang in order to rationalize, excuse and normalize bad actions.
You claim you know better than me. Trust me, I know FAR more about this than you.
Right.
Now, please, Fuck all the way off.
Slang? "trust me"??? WTF--I dont know you so certainly dont trust you. Id love to know your credentials in order for me to make a rational judgment about what you"know".
For arguments sake lets assume you know all about medications--then if you did you would know that Julie Miller and Ake Svandstett DID play by the rules imposed by officials--they even have the Vets confirming this--but thanks to advanced laboratory techniques using the latest LC/MS equipment and ridiculously low thresholds for certain easy to detect drugs--you would know that they got "shafted"
I never mentioned that its a "NO BIGGIE" but a level of .0005Mg of Betamethasone is certainly not worthy of costing them 10-'s of thousands of dollars and losing a stakes race for something that didnt affect performance.. A fine --yes--thats it. Now if it was a performance enhancer-like anabolics or EPO then 0 tolerance and heavy penalties enforced.
Thats all Im saying--Id like to see racing cleaned up just like everyone else--but penalties like those for Betamethasone at infinitely low levels are not the way to go.
Indictments and Jail time for PED's-catching people red handed by the FBI---IS.
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Of the other few hundred horses that race on that day across the country, how many of them came up positive?
I totally agree with your point in assessing the value of a extremely low count of a therapeutic overage. It is akin to a speeding ticket when compared to the stuff the others are under criminal indictment for. But, if you get enough speeding tickets, like Baffert, you must be dealt a penalty that will sway your current practices. We must not allow ones influence and power to give them their own set of rules.
So if these two pushed the envelope and got snagged by the hair on their ass, they should be given a penalty that will entice them too, to rethink their program.
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Of the other few hundred horses that race on that day across the country, how many of them came up positive?
I totally agree with your point in assessing the value of a extremely low count of a therapeutic overage. It is akin to a speeding ticket when compared to the stuff the others are under criminal indictment for. But, if you get enough speeding tickets, like Baffert, you must be dealt a penalty that will sway your current practices. We must not allow ones influence and power to give them their own set of rules.
So if these two pushed the envelope and got snagged by the hair on their ass, they should be given a penalty that will entice them too, to rethink their program.
Hair on their ass ??? The threshold is 5 they had 67 and 68. Its a shell game of what they are testing for and the clam was still in the shell…. This therapeutic stuff is crap. Either they are loaded or they aren’t.
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Can you explain the logic in "zero tolerance" from Jeff Gural regarding Lou Pena's non banned race day meds overages and today's 100% tolerance when his own trainers get popped?
There is no logic when it comes to who Gural bans at his tracks.He employs haters and butt kissers-who fill up Gurals head with who he should ban--mostly just based on hearsay and who has the most power or connections..eg if you are a trainer and your best friend came up positive and is banned by Gurals butt kissers-you may get banned as well just because hes your best friend-- so you must be no good as well!-- In Penas case -he had 1700 supposedly violations where he administered medications inside the required guidelines. Why he didnt get popped in NY remains a mystery to this day-either there was no testing done,his samples never got tested,or the equipment and staff were incompetent.The question was asked when he appeared in Court-and the answer from Maylin the chief 'analyst" was "I just dont know". Pena won his case but of course NYRA never admits they may have screwed up--or follow the Law if they dont like it-so they banned him and gave him a massive fine. He should never have been banned by Gural--because he was found not guitly in a Court of Law. I do agree however what Pena did deserved a long suspension as "stacking" is now a severe penalty.However life goes on-he served his time for something he was found not guilty on-so he should be allowed to race in NJ and NY.. Even murderers get their life back at some point.
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All Good Christians, ASK the GURU,Lucpark. Tell them Lucpark. ???
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more good points bond
its like covid testing, even if you have the most minute trace and no symptoms you are included in the positive group versus someone who has covid and is very ill
here is another example, if i drink a mouthful of vodka and someone else drinks the bottle and they test us both for traces of vodka we are both positive although clearly we are in drastically different stages of consumption
rules are rules and if the limit is exceeded than they should pay a fine but thats all
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THERE IS NO LINE IN THE SAND AND IF THERE IS, IT MOVES ALOT
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Bond and Brown Jug I have to agree. This is what happens with all this redundancy in testing. Different levels allowed of therapeutic drugs by different groups, States, and Provinces. IMO it's the cheaters using EPO and other PED's that they should be after but they are helpless and can't do a thing. What did it take 10 months or whatever for the Feds and 5 Stones to expose the cheats which proves the only way to clean it up is to have a commissioner with federal backing to put the cheats out of racing. But as I have said before I don't think they want to clean it up and secondly if they did all they have to do is duplicate the testing in Hong Kong along with their prison penalties.
Fully agree Iceman.
However with regards to Hong Kong-this is monumentaly difficult in USA with many harness tracks not having on track stabling.In Hong Kong-all horses are on the grounds.Everyone entering the facility is searched and checked like Gestapo.. The Vets are all employed by the track-and under constant surveilance. Then they have security cameras-in every barn and the best drug detection Lab in the world-I think they employ something like 30 analysts-who are all cross checked and under investigation. Bank records and phones are checked periodically.If you come up positive even with all that surveilance and security-with any type of proven performance enhancer-you will go to jail and the keys thrown away.The stigma and disgrace you bring on your family--is something the Chinese take seriously-so nearly everyone racing is playing by the rules and those few that dont-soon end up in jail. That is why the 2 traks in Hong Kong bet as much as the entire Harness and T'Bred tracks in the USA--its unreal. Most races have a 10million$ handle/race. Average daily handle something like 150 MILLION. Its a whole different ballgame in Hong Kong. When my Dad and I were there we bought a pitcher of beer for 20$ and filled it up free the rest of the day!! Food was unreal as well--great day of racing-the stands are packed every meeting -they shut the gate before the first race as 50,000 are already inside.
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Of the other few hundred horses that race on that day across the country, how many of them came up positive?
I totally agree with your point in assessing the value of a extremely low count of a therapeutic overage. It is akin to a speeding ticket when compared to the stuff the others are under criminal indictment for. But, if you get enough speeding tickets, like Baffert, you must be dealt a penalty that will sway your current practices. We must not allow ones influence and power to give them their own set of rules.
So if these two pushed the envelope and got snagged by the hair on their ass, they should be given a penalty that will entice them too, to rethink their program.
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The way states test horses especially the states without slot funding you would be amazed on how many(not many at all)of those horses were tested and if a full panel was tested or they were testing for your generic items.
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The real issue here is the drug regulatory committee that runs the allowable medications and withdrawal times. It's all made up by the phoney ARCI commission. They won't tell you the science behind the limits and withdrawal times because they just make everything up as they go along. Here is the rule right from their website.
Dexamethasone
Harness Racing Only.
5 picograms per milliliter
of plasma or serum
SEE NOTE
BELOW
72 hours
Intramuscular and intravenous
administration of
dexamethasone sodium
phosphate or oral
administration of
dexamethasone at
0.05milligrams per kilogram
regardless of route
RMTC study
Applicable analyte is
dexamethasone in
plasma or serum.
They catch people on allowable (Class 4) medications and never catch anyone using epogen, Soda, or anything that finds the real drugs like the ones all the trainers at Yonkers were finally caught using thanks to the FBI. The ARCI is a joke. Can't wait for them to be out of business and the Fed's take over. Can't happen soon enough. Good Riddins
Your right the FBI can't take over soon enough. Paulick report had made mention of next summer? The USTA is trying to fight against it of course.