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General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: Admin on October 20, 2023, 07:39:07 AM
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...catch driver in history? Try to support your answer with facts as well as your opinions.
For me, I'd say Tony Morgan has quite the career statistics.
17,000+ wins with over $140m in earnings. Champion driver in multiple states (IL, DE, at minimum). There's always been the understanding he's 1 of the best all-around horsemen too, but his dash victories and earnings should have him enshrined in Goshen already IMO.
Your pick?
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Harold Kelly. Such a gentleman who gave everything he had without any fanfare. He wasn’t much of a traveler and didn’t race on Sundays. He didn’t say too much but had excellent hands that spoke for him. Hard to argue against Tony Morgan so I won’t but let’s not forget that Harold Kelly had a very solid career.
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Wally Hennessey - 11,500 wins in 45, 500 . No one else in the 10000+ plus club even approaches that. Next to Herve and Tetrick, he is probably the most "complete" driver I have ever seen. Can drive anything vs anyone, anywhere at anytime. Lifetime UDRS and win percentage is staggering!
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Wally Hennessey - 11,500 wins in 45, 500 . No one else in the 10000+ plus club even approaches that. Next to Herve and Tetrick, he is probably the most "complete" driver I have ever seen. Can drive anything vs anyone, anywhere at anytime. Lifetime UDRS and win percentage is staggering!
Herve could drive at a top level one a two turn track?
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Wally Hennessey - 11,500 wins in 45, 500 . No one else in the 10000+ plus club even approaches that. Next to Herve and Tetrick, he is probably the most "complete" driver I have ever seen. Can drive anything vs anyone, anywhere at anytime. Lifetime UDRS and win percentage is staggering!
Obviously you can add Miller, Campbell and LaChance to the "complete" list, but underrated - Hennessey!
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Carmine he was a top-rated catch driver before any other driver thought about it.
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I love you Remington but how can Carmine be underrated if you call him "top rated" as he was. He was the prototype. the originator of catch driving. I don't think Carmine was under appreciated. he was flash and glitz personified. I would say he and haughton had their "colors" emulated more than any 2 drivers ever.....I always figured underrated meant, guys who were better than we realized, their skill set somewhat under appreciated and so forth. I don't think anyone in the modern era fits that description like Wally. His numbers are sick, but his name doesn't exact;y roll off the tongue like a Carmine or Herve.
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Long term , I kinda like the Tony Morgan call..needs to be in HOF... Currently, How bout Kakaley?...Can hold his own with anyone. I must admit owners and trainers don't seem to share my view. Thus the underrated tag. Needs more opportunities.
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Long term , I kinda like the Tony Morgan call..needs to be in HOF... Currently, How bout Kakaley?...Can hold his own with anyone. I must admit owners and trainers don't seem to share my view. Thus the underrated tag. Needs more opportunities.
One of the things I do when not on here is harass Goshen and a few writers frequently asking basically, "WHEN THE FUCK WILL BRETT PELLING, TONY MORGAN AND STEVE ELLIOTT BE PUT IN THE HOF! Anything less is an embarrasment. So on board with Tony. I guess by a certain definition you could call him underrated. Among today's top drivers in their prime, I agree Kakaley is a very good choice. He wins without aggression and that's a good quality.
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Wally Hennessey - 11,500 wins in 45, 500 . No one else in the 10000+ plus club even approaches that. Next to Herve and Tetrick, he is probably the most "complete" driver I have ever seen. Can drive anything vs anyone, anywhere at anytime. Lifetime UDRS and win percentage is staggering!
How is he underrated , he’s in the HOF
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I don't know about most underrated, but Walter Paisley could drive a horse. Came to Monti one year in late December to try and claim the USTA driving title for that year -- I think he fell short by a handful of wins.
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How is he underrated , he’s in the HOF
Ya know what! go fucking argue with Remington he said Carmine. I am sick of your shit and your mouth.
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Billy Parker
George Phalen
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Harold Kelly. Such a gentleman who gave everything he had without any fanfare. He wasn’t much of a traveler and didn’t race on Sundays. He didn’t say too much but had excellent hands that spoke for him. Hard to argue against Tony Morgan so I won’t but let’s not forget that Harold Kelly had a very solid career.
tmbz1 tmbz1 tmbz1
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Hughie Bell
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Bell started driving in like 1915. Can we go back a bit further.
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Gary Mosher
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Bell started driving in like 1915. Can we go back a bit further.
Sep Palin,Curly Smart
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One of the most disliked Assholes YR/RR ever saw. Literally had to leave in fear for his safety. Literally.
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Sep Palin,Curly Smart
E. Roland Harriman and President Grant
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One of the most disliked Assholes YR/RR ever saw. Literally had to leave in fear for his safety. Literally.
Gary was very confident and could make speed, he would park anyone, and yes, he made enemies
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Perry Steinkhols brother literally tried to run him over with a car at RR.
On a personal level, when Gary cane down to YR, I was one of the first people to give him catch drives. He won back to back for me with 2 different horses. So in a couple weeks, we are 4 for 4. Ok great. Seemed like a nice kid. Farm boyish. like you said could get one out good. One of the two horses was a mare. We are free wheeling in the same class off 2 wins and we have the rail. On the ramp waiting to go out he comes out and asks how she is. I tell him she's as good as she has been. I'm thinking she has to fall down not to be first or second. This prick turns to me and says "I think our win percentage is getting a bit too high" takes the lines and heads out. He gets good and lost through out the race and finishes 4th. He's been down here and 2 weeks and he is pulling Herve shit. Except he isn't Herve... I never put him down on a horse again.
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Wally Hennessey - 11,500 wins in 45, 500 . No one else in the 10000+ plus club even approaches that. Next to Herve and Tetrick, he is probably the most "complete" driver I have ever seen. Can drive anything vs anyone, anywhere at anytime. Lifetime UDRS and win percentage is staggering!
I don’t know why but I never liked Wally probably because it seemed like at pompano he drove all the cadillacs and most of his drives were horses that were tons the best. I always liked Bruce ranger over wally. Just my opinion but being a midwestern guy yeah Tony Morgan took catch driving to a whole new level. I literally seen him do Walter case type moves on horribly gaited horses and drive them fearlessly. I also thought it was cool how track management hated tony but he loved every minute of it and told them to kiss his ass.
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Moni Maker
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Moni Maker
Like she wasn’t a Cadillac that nobody else could of done the same? Bad example in my opinion.
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Like she wasn’t a Cadillac that nobody else could of done the same? Bad example in my opinion.
He is the guy who said anyone could have won with Niatross but now he says Wally made Moni Maker. She may have been one of the top 5 trotters that ever lived. He's a mental case.
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It's a compliment to him that a Sire Stake / Pompano snow bird was given the priveledge to drive her. I never said he made her what she was. In a racing world dominated by other names, Hennessey reached every plateau after 5000 up to 11000, in fewer drives than anyone. His lifetime win percentage is 1 out of 4.5 Yet he flies under the radar and is still very sharp in his mid 60s His career numbers are almost impossible,
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I can’t imagine how many times I witnessed Wally at Pompano. He basically made the same move off the gate 90-95% of the time, unless he didn’t think he had any chance. Off the gate Wally took no prisoners. He was going to get to the lead or sit in the pocket regardless of his post position. Until Dave Miller started coming during the winter months, Wally intimidated all the other drivers. They all acted like they had to succumb to Wally’s wishes. The strategy served Wally well at Pompano. But I thought Wally’s skills were better demonstrated at Saratoga Raceway. At this track the Pompano strategy couldn’t work as well. With the short distance to the first turn, strategy and skill trumped tenacity and brute speed. To be successful at Saratoga, unless you have an inside post, you had to work out a good trip and have something left to finish on top. Wally showed he was very good pulling this off for so many years. He’s a true HOF resident.
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Having won 11,500 and counting in 45,500 drives something no one else has even approached, ( Jason Bartlett is in this "neighborhood" , he has an amazing career win percentage ) Wally Hennessey has show that for over 40 years he could win with anything, anywhere at anytime. But when other names, IMHO, roll off most peoples tongues when asked who the greatest catch drivers ever were ( Carmine, Herve, Case, Miller, Palone, LaChance, Campbell, Cat, Pierce, Bartlett, Brennan, Sears , O'donnell, Waples and so on ) Wally Hennesey, to me, comes off underated. Kinda forgotten about when we talk about the greatest ever. His win percentage and adjusted earning blows every one of those guys away. AND he beat all of them and more than onceI mentioned Moni Maker to demonstrate in era when all of those guys existed, they handed her to Wally and she won all over the world with him. Theo is correct. He was a dominant force.
As for Moni Maker's stature measured against history The Best 3 North American trotters ever, IMO, were Mack Lobell, Peace Corps and Moni Maker
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My vote for top 3 trotters are-Muscle Hill, Greyhound, Moni Maker.
I included Greyhound as his 1.55 record in 1938! stood for 31 years!! Incredible. He was considered the greatest harness horse of all time by many and the videos Ive seen of him are amazing. Had a beautiful flawless gait and built like a tank.
Muscle Hill probably the best trotter Ive seen-trained by a clown-and on his day could beat anyone anywhere . Look at his stallion record also-great racehorse great sire.
Moni Maker--3 times horse of the Year says it all---Legend.
As for HOF--Tony Morgan has been winning races for 40+ years-and has more talent in his little finger than most drivers today have in their whole body. He fully deserves to be in the HOF and Im sure he will be soon. There are drivers in there with half the talent of TM--eg Carmine.
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Well - there is still a lot of anti Tony Morgan at the USTA - leftover Bergstein and Pines BS but I will still rattle their cage. Mack Lobell vs Muscle Hill was a coin toss. i know Mack went to Europe and won. Did Muscle Hill? I am not familiar with all of his career. Greyhound hailing from antiquity, I left out. I confined my choices to modern era. Like what do you do with Dan Patch? 1;55 over 100 years ago.
Great thoughts Bond ( especially Carmine ) wink, wink.
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Richard Wojcio could drive the heck out of a horse. I would take him any time anywhere.
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Well---Muscle Hill came AFTER Mack Lobell--so-Modern Era--and if they raced together at 3 Muscle Hill would have smoked Mack. Muscle Hill-won 20 times in 21 starts--being undefeated in his last 20-and I watched him jog every start--no one came close/ In 2009 he won the Hambletonian in 1.50.1 under wraps by 6 L.. Sears was a passenger. Only reason Muscle Hill didnt go overseas is that he retired early to stud--too valuable as a Stallion--where he raked the money in--still is. Mack -great horse--but beaten in over 15 starts and broke in several--had a bad disposition---I didnt think they would get him to the post in Sweden-bad manners.
Horse for Horse--no question in my mind--Mack clearly inferior to the Muscle whos' gait was so flawless it was perfection.
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Richard Wojcio could drive the heck out of a horse. I would take him any time anywhere.
Yes==very underrated but HOF??? ngc3
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Well---Muscle Hill came AFTER Mack Lobell--so-Modern Era--and if they raced together at 3 Muscle Hill would have smoked Mack. Muscle Hill-won 20 times in 21 starts--being undefeated in his last 20-and I watched him jog every start--no one came close/ In 2009 he won the Hambletonian in 1.50.1 under wraps by 6 L.. Sears was a passenger. Only reason Muscle Hill didnt go overseas is that he retired early to stud--too valuable as a Stallion--where he raked the money in--still is. Mack -great horse--but beaten in over 15 starts and broke in several--had a bad disposition---I didnt think they would get him to the post in Sweden-bad manners.
Horse for Horse--no question in my mind--Mack clearly inferior to the Muscle whos' gait was so flawless it was perfection. That was the reason he was so great regardless of what his 73cv.2 trainer said. Kudos for not screwing him up but he certainly didnt "make" Muscle--God did--and Im only greatful for being alive to witness such a work of divine art.
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Richard Wojcio could drive the heck out of a horse. I would take him any time anywhere.
Richard Wojcio - Talent, no doubt. Came to YR and got in a lot of trouble. Addicted gambler who got in debt to the crew across the street. Convicted race fixer. Drove a horse for me and choked him down ion the hole behind a falling down rat driven by the legendary Anthony Bifolco Jr.. There are other things too, I won't mention on here out of fairness to others and out of discretion. Talent, no doubt but he threw it all away. Pretty sure he is NOT going to the HOF.
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Well---Muscle Hill came AFTER Mack Lobell--so-Modern Era--and if they raced together at 3 Muscle Hill would have smoked Mack. Muscle Hill-won 20 times in 21 starts--being undefeated in his last 20-and I watched him jog every start--no one came close/ In 2009 he won the Hambletonian in 1.50.1 under wraps by 6 L.. Sears was a passenger. Only reason Muscle Hill didnt go overseas is that he retired early to stud--too valuable as a Stallion--where he raked the money in--still is. Mack -great horse--but beaten in over 15 starts and broke in several--had a bad disposition---I didnt think they would get him to the post in Sweden-bad manners.
Horse for Horse--no question in my mind--Mack clearly inferior to the Muscle whos' gait was so flawless it was perfection.
Given you rescitation of Muscle Hill's career, there can be no arguement he was 4 legged perfection. Around the time of his campaigns I was away from the sport in more ways than one. So I was still locked into MM, PC and ML being the best 3 I ever saw. Domestically. I would have to agree Muscle Hill, could easily supplant Mack Lobell from that list. Btw, to me modern era starts in 1980, speed era ushered in by Niatross, Nihilator, Dragons lair, etc. Godd talking with you Bond
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All I see is underrated catch driver. I must have missed the part that says HOF. I also know that he was a gambler but it doesn't say how much did he gamble. When the money was down he could do the job.
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Bond mentioned HOF initially, I just piggy backed it. yeah he had talent, no doubt, but he was slime. Could he have had a big career? Quite likely. He threw it away, not us. Trainers were only to happy to use him. till we saw the true colors. He came down almost simultaneously with Jay randall, and pof the 2 I always thought Wojcio was far better. too bad things didn't work out for him.
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Being 35 and in your prime and indicted by a federal grand jury can sort of derail your career. To be fair, he was convicted of some charges and acquitted of others. But then even more trouble was in store for him. Got in deep and was "owned" like Rene Poulin. Nuff time spent on this crap.
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If Marc East St. Louis Jr. could only get his shit together he could be the next
Walter Case.
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Hope not for his sake. tmbz1
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Ranger,Rzeron.
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Ranger is a good one. Burke's and Lindy Farms' choice when their horses are entered at Plainridge.
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Bruce was my idol growing up in NE. Fantastic driver who had the strength to ultimately turn his life around. Could roll with anyone. Drives like a man 20 years younger. tmbz1 tmbz1
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If Marc East St. Louis Jr. could only get his shit together he could be the next
Walter Case.
I agree. He has already killed a horse and then set it on fire before burying it. I believe he has the talent to stab a girlfiend or wife just like Walter.
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Larry Remmen
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Larry Remmen
I don't think I ever saw Larry drive a horse.
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I don't think I ever saw Larry drive a horse.
Ray was horrible
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Ray Remmen? Horrible??? huh? He wasn't Campbell, but he was a damned good horseman and is in the HOF. Held his own at the top level for decades. Cmon, Larry
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Ray Remmen? Horrible??? huh? He wasn't Campbell, but he was a damned good horseman and is in the HOF. Held his own at the top level for decades. Cmon, Larry
Great trainer but questionable driver Fugman. Just my opinion but beach towel was his claim to fame.
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A major catch driver? No. So he was an innacurate answer to the original question by whoever mentioned him. But he did drive around 2700 winners. Won the first BigM Hambo with Shiaway St Pat. First one I ever went to. I went to almost every other one from then on until the last one I saw in person, which was Dewey. All good, buddy!
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...catch driver in history? Try to support your answer with facts as well as your opinions.
For me, I'd say Tony Morgan has quite the career statistics.
17,000+ wins with over $140m in earnings. Champion driver in multiple states (IL, DE, at minimum). There's always been the understanding he's 1 of the best all-around horsemen too, but his dash victories and earnings should have him enshrined in Goshen already IMO.
Your pick?
Best said by Bob Heyden and no sense trying to repeat all of the numbers, but George Brennan not in HOF (I know why, but still deserving based on performance)..below is a link to the details and he has clearly added more credentials since this year-old article:
https://harnessracingupdate.com/2022/04/22/celebrating-the-career-of-george-brennan-on-his-55th-birthday/
P.S. Benny Webster gets no love, and aside from meet driving championships at all 3 metro NY tracks (Yonkers, Roosevelt and the Meadowlands), he also won the Jug, Hambletonian, Kentucky Futurity, Holmes (biggest $$ race for a while), Messenger etc. He did a LOT of driving for me, with horses I owned in the 70's and 80's and could keep a horse "alive" (and come off a helmet) as good as anyone during that era.
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As with a few other NY drivers there was a black cloud over Benny for race fixing. He was thrown out of downstate big NY tracks before being allowed back in. I remember it all well as he went to Monticello and just tore the place up with winners one summer.
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I didn't open the link about Brennan, bit I would imagine he is suffering somewhat for his involvement with the Wojcio crap at freehold he was part of along with, I think, Howard Parker? I feel he has redeemed himself with such a solid career and his time will come soon for Goshen.
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Benny belongs in HOF long before George does
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Benny belongs in HOF long before George does
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Benny the whip was a great driver but a degenerate gambler. Harold Story could drive at any track with any drivers and be as good or better than any driver in the country. If Harold wanted to win a race he won it.
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I remember that dude..Try and hang him, you better be ready to go down in flames...Don't know his complete history but don't think he would be considered a 'CATCH DRIVER.'