HORSEPLOP.COM
General Category => Harness Racing => Topic started by: theokodjak26 on September 25, 2023, 11:11:39 PM
-
Now don’t kill me asking but does anyone know if Ron Burke and associates make any real money in this sport? All I know is how expensive it is just to break even. Burke seems to own and train hundreds of horses. I don’t think he claims horses and he raises his horses from birth. We all know that many babies never win a qualify race. I also know Burke wins a bunch of stake races. Are these wins enough to offset all the disappointments? Does he breed and make money in that business? His overhead must be huge too. How many assistant trainers, grooms, vets etc does he employ? Any thoughts?
-
Now don’t kill me asking but does anyone know if Ron Burke and associates make any real money in this sport? All I know is how expensive it is just to break even. Burke seems to own and train hundreds of horses. I don’t think he claims horses and he raises his horses from birth. We all know that many babies never win a qualify race. I also know Burke wins a bunch of stake races. Are these wins enough to offset all the disappointments? Does he breed and make money in that business? His overhead must be huge too. How many assistant trainers, grooms, vets etc does he employ? Any thoughts?
Looking at the numbers, guestimating the expenses I can and bolstered by his ownership in so many of his horses, I would guess he keeps at least a million a year net net for himself.
-
Now don’t kill me asking but does anyone know if Ron Burke and associates make any real money in this sport? All I know is how expensive it is just to break even. Burke seems to own and train hundreds of horses. I don’t think he claims horses and he raises his horses from birth. We all know that many babies never win a qualify race. I also know Burke wins a bunch of stake races. Are these wins enough to offset all the disappointments? Does he breed and make money in that business? His overhead must be huge too. How many assistant trainers, grooms, vets etc does he employ? Any thoughts?
His stable has been earning over 20 million per year. I can't imagine his expenses being anywhere near that so I would bet him and his associates are making a nice profit.
-
His stable has been earning over 20 million per year. I can't imagine his expenses being anywhere near that so I would bet him and his associates are making a nice profit.
yeah, but so many ways to bleed cash, I would imagine at best their net/net is maybe 7 or 8 percent, so yeah maybe a million or a tick over.
-
yeah, but so many ways to bleed cash, I would imagine at best their net/net is maybe 7 or 8 percent, so yeah maybe a million or a tick over.
A million every year on the books. Also, I hear a few of his owners do well betting.
-
A million every year on the books. Also, I hear a few of his owners do well betting.
That would surprise me
-
That would surprise me
Mark Weaver and Mike Bruscemi gamble. Trust me.
-
Mark Weaver and Mike Bruscemi gamble. Trust me.
i believe you. Frank Popfinger once told me as a young kid. If you dont make twice as much gambling as your horse earns racing youll go broke in this business. And nobody did better than Frank betting his own money. I could tell you stories you literally would not believe about frank.
-
i believe you. Frank Popfinger once told me as a young kid. If you dont make twice as much gambling as your horse earns racing youll go broke in this business. And nobody did better than Frank betting his own money. I could tell you stories you literally would not believe about frank.
Frank was the conductor of many races at Roosevelt back in the 60's and 70's.
-
Frank was the conductor of many races at Roosevelt back in the 60's and 70's.
And 80s and 90s
-
Mark Weaver and Mike Bruscemi gamble. Trust me.
Where are the pools even large enough to actually show a profit gambling on harness racing? I know plenty of guys that used to grind out a living ever year betting but today there is no way anyone can make a good score because the pools are small everywhere. It would have to be a multi race wager and then you show me someone that bets pic 3, 4, and 5’s and I’ll show you a loser in the long run. And I can’t remember that last time I actually saw a Ron Burke winning horse pay over $20. He is overbet in every race. They fir sure aren’t making very much through the windows. Trust me on this.
-
Fall 1998, I run into Junior Spano at a deli. He is grooming for Frank. He says look at the results tossing me a daily News. I do and I'm like, so what's up? He says, "Frank made a hundred thousand cash last night for himself." I said, "he didn't even win a race last night" Junior says, " I know" and starts laughing. Fact is Frank had 4 in from his barn and all 4 ran second. That didn't stop Frank from crushing.
-
Where are the pools even large enough to actually show a profit gambling on harness racing? I know plenty of guys that used to grind out a living ever year betting but today there is no way anyone can make a good score because the pools are small everywhere. It would have to be a multi race wager and then you show me someone that bets pic 3, 4, and 5’s and I’ll show you a loser in the long run. And I can’t remember that last time I actually saw a Ron Burke winning horse pay over $20. He is overbet in every race. They fir sure aren’t making very much through the windows. Trust me on this.
I just looked up Burke's stats. Through today he has 3825 starts with 854 wins. They are making bank.
-
Where are the pools even large enough to actually show a profit gambling on harness racing? I know plenty of guys that used to grind out a living ever year betting but today there is no way anyone can make a good score because the pools are small everywhere. It would have to be a multi race wager and then you show me someone that bets pic 3, 4, and 5’s and I’ll show you a loser in the long run. And I can’t remember that last time I actually saw a Ron Burke winning horse pay over $20. He is overbet in every race. They fir sure aren’t making very much through the windows. Trust me on this.
Thats what i was thinking when I said I find that surprising but didnt want to get into a long debate with this new guy.
-
Fall 1998, I run into Junior Spano at a deli. He is grooming for Frank. He says look at the results tossing me a daily News. I do and I'm like, so what's up? He says, "Frank made a hundred thousand cash last night for himself." I said, "he didn't even win a race last night" Junior says, " I know" and starts laughing. Fact is Frank had 4 in from his barn and all 4 ran second. That didn't stop Frank from crushing.
Yeah, they made a boatload.
-
remember too, soon after retiring Frank opened an Italian restaurant lower Manhattan, That takes cash. Heard it was good - catered to wiseguys, tourists and locals.
-
i believe you. Frank Popfinger once told me as a young kid. If you dont make twice as much gambling as your horse earns racing youll go broke in this business. And nobody did better than Frank betting his own money. I could tell you stories you literally would not believe about frank.
Back in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s, you could make some good money at the windows if you were very shrewd conductors. 2023 is completely different. Try betting any real money into the pools of Plainridge, Pocono, Yonkers, et al. Any 10 dollar + bet disrupts pools and you’ll step on your own $$$! Assuming you succeed, getting a measly $ 3000 pool if you’re likely after takeouts!! Get a bookie?? Get caught and have more potential problems?? Think about it!
-
Anyone have an experience or know of someone who bought or claimed off of Burke?
-
I just looked up Burke's stats. Through today he has 3825 starts with 854 wins. They are making bank.
Not possible. Show me results of anything that paid serious money. Anytime Burke wins he is usually under $7. Like I said show me a gambler on harness racing and I’ll show you a big time loser in the long run. They can’t make any kind of a big score unless they are 3/5 and bet against themselves and they’re not stupid. They ain’t risking their investment as owners fir $5k trifecta score. It’s not happening pal.
-
Well Frank never envisioned a racing world where there wasnt 1 -2 million bet nightly everywhere, but I think you understand wht he was trying to tell a young wanna be like me back in the day
-
Not possible. Show+ e results of anything that paid serious money. Anytime Burke wins he is usually under $7. Like I said show me a gambler on harness racing and I’ll show you a big time loser in the long run. They can’t make any kind of a big score unless they are 3/5 and bet against themselves and they’re not stupid. They ain’t risking their investment as owners fir $5k trifecta score. It’s not happening pal.
Believe what you want. Their horses are racing at 5 or 6 tracks every day. Minor scores will add up.
-
Believe what you want. Their horses are racing at 5 or 6 tracks every day. Minor scores will add up.
ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 I know Mark personally. He bets like $50 and that’s only when he’s 4/5. Not happening at the windows pal. They make bank on the ownership side.
-
ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 ngc3 I know Mark personally. He bets like $50 and that’s only when he’s 4/5. Not happening at the windows pal. They make bank on the ownership side.
Like I said, believe what you want. When you are racing and winning with that many horses, even if you are wagering minimally, it adds up and in most cases, tax free.
-
Anyone have an experience or know of someone who bought or claimed off of Burke?
Many horses have a good racing career after Burke. Somewhere in L.A. made a lot of money after Burke who got him from MacIntosh in Canada. Winning Shadow won a ton of races for Burke and after still won over 10 a year. Right now Backstreet Shadow is a Burke "castoff" after 2 trainers previously and in the form of his life.
Burke is very well known for getting nickle breds especially trotters, and turning them into money earners consistently.
-
And Burke has had a couple of positives in the last year. Even Burke looks for an edge here and there.
-
Sweet Lou will keep him very wealthy for many years to come. Being a top US sire and now breeding overseas with unlimited bookings puts millions in his pocket.
-
His trainers share is all gravy.
-
Weren't Covered Bridge and Backstreet Shadow trained by Burke last year?
Covered Bridge started off with Okusko, went to Blake MacIntosh, then in 2020 through 9/9 2022 he was with Burke. He sold him to Ford after a win that date, Ford won with him first start and as we know he is arguably the best pacer on a half mile track this year, so definitely life after Burke on him.
As I mentioned a couple of responses earlier Backstreet Shadow was with Burke for a couple of years and has plenty of life now.
-
His trainers share is all gravy.
5% of 23 million ain't no chicken scratch, that's for sure! tmbz1
-
Looking at the numbers, guestimating the expenses I can and bolstered by his ownership in so many of his horses, I would guess he keeps at least a million a year net net for himself.
Yep, he definitely steals more then he spends
-
5% of 23 million ain't no chicken scratch, that's for sure! tmbz1
No, but most businesses look for a net/net of around 12 to 15%, I would guess his is more like 7. Still worth 1.5 M per year.
-
Is no one concerned on how easily TCI circled the field. Recovering from the break & winning going away made him 20 lengths better then all except his stablemate.
Are all the other two year trotters bad or is TCI far superior?
-
I look at results. Travis Alexander wins a high percentage. The barn won at a high percentage while Travis was suspended.
Jeff Gillis was a leading trainer in Canada. He crashed & burned. It looks like Jeff has regained his touch.
Based on that i don't think Covered Bridge & Backstreet Shadow are good examples.
-
Is no one concerned on how easily TCI circled the field. Recovering from the break & winning going away made him 20 lengths better then all except his stablemate.
Are all the other two year trotters bad or is TCI far superior?
Not concerned at all. Was it 20, seemed like 15 made a lot of ground in a slow quarter. Contacted the field, grabbed on and he is in a different league than others.
-
Not concerned at all. Was it 20, seemed like 15 made a lot of ground in a slow quarter. Contacted the field, grabbed on and he is in a different league than others.
I agree! About 35 years ago I had a trotter in to go at the Meadowlands. It was a claiming "handicap" and we had the highest claiming price on our horse, so he was given the 10 hole. Ben Webster was driving and he broke out of the gate, so was easily 15 lengths off the lead. Down the backstretch he caught the field and at the head of the lane Bennie pulled wide and just trotted down the field and won by a neck. Can't remember who the race caller was that night, but he said something to the effect.."I don't believe it!" Horse's name was Future Pro (out of Florida Pro) and he was one solid, tough trotter. We did not put him back in claimers for a while.
-
Howard Oil? 73cv.2
-
Is this really a thread??? unless your willing to go to the mat STFU.
-
well, i think burke took about $1.3 m out of mohawk saturday
so that aint all bad
-
I agree! About 35 years ago I had a trotter in to go at the Meadowlands. It was a claiming "handicap" and we had the highest claiming price on our horse, so he was given the 10 hole. Ben Webster was driving and he broke out of the gate, so was easily 15 lengths off the lead. Down the backstretch he caught the field and at the head of the lane Bennie pulled wide and just trotted down the field and won by a neck. Can't remember who the race caller was that night, but he said something to the effect.."I don't believe it!" Horse's name was Future Pro (out of Florida Pro) and he was one solid, tough trotter. We did not put him back in claimers for a while.
OmG, Future Pro! an excellent trotter on the Metro NY/NJ circuit Nice that you owned him That just took me back
-
Mark Weaver and Mike Bruscemi gamble. Trust me.
What happened to Steve Buscemi?
-
i believe you. Frank Popfinger once told me as a young kid. If you dont make twice as much gambling as your horse earns racing youll go broke in this business. And nobody did better than Frank betting his own money. I could tell you stories you literally would not believe about frank.
Yes, I would believe because he also trained and drove several of my horses. I can tell you all about the Moonstone Bay affair for instance. You could bet at the front windows at Roosevelt and walk around to the other side and wait for the "Official light" and collect. The same was true with "Golden Hands" and Cobb. Do you remember Maida Million, probably the fastest Mare for the times ? I lived in Old Brookville at the time, 15 minutes from Orbachs.
-
i believe you. Frank Popfinger once told me as a young kid. If you dont make twice as much gambling as your horse earns racing youll go broke in this business. And nobody did better than Frank betting his own money. I could tell you stories you literally would not believe about frank.
Do you think Lawyer Taylor gambles. I read an article that said he has 125 horses in training. WOW! I also notice that they are quite spread out. Perhaps some sort of barter deal. Nothing wrong with that, I guess.
-
Covered Bridge, Lou's Sweetrevenge and Pyro are others who have improved and done very well after Burke sold.
Many horses have a good racing career after Burke. Somewhere in L.A. made a lot of money after Burke who got him from MacIntosh in Canada. Winning Shadow won a ton of races for Burke and after still won over 10 a year. Right now Backstreet Shadow is a Burke "castoff" after 2 trainers previously and in the form of his life.
Burke is very well known for getting nickle breds especially trotters, and turning them into money earners consistently.
-
yeah, but so many ways to bleed cash, I would imagine at best their net/net is maybe 7 or 8 percent, so yeah maybe a million or a tick over.
I believe Sam’s/Costco run on about 15%. We don’t see Burke et al downsizing the operation from face value on what we see/hear in the business.
-
Where are the pools even large enough to actually show a profit gambling on harness racing? I know plenty of guys that used to grind out a living ever year betting but today there is no way anyone can make a good score because the pools are small everywhere. It would have to be a multi race wager and then you show me someone that bets pic 3, 4, and 5’s and I’ll show you a loser in the long run. And I can’t remember that last time I actually saw a Ron Burke winning horse pay over $20. He is overbet in every race. They fir sure aren’t making very much through the windows. Trust me on this.
Are they betting into the pools and helping the sport or through other channels?? That is now the question of the day!
-
Are they betting into the pools and helping the sport or through other channels?? That is now the question of the day!
Weaver is a long time handicapper. Harness and TBred. He has always been the guy that could see a horse on the improve. His handicapping talent is what helped takes Burke operation from mid level Meadows operation to what it is today. Obviously Mickey and Ronnie added to the value by learning the tricks of pre race.
-
Very good analysis! tmbz1
-
burke scooped most of the money out of the meadows today
-
Stan is Mark